Oral History Transcript - Rosemarie Dietel Hageman - February 22, 2008
Interview with Rosemarie Dietel Hageman
Interviewer: Barbara Thibodeaux
Date of Interview: February 22, 2008
Location: San Marcos, Texas
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Interviewee: Rosemarie Dietel Hageman – A 1974 elementary education graduate and retired educator who lives in San Marcos, Rosemarie “Pixie” Dietel Hageman is the daughter of the late Norman Dietel, editor and publisher of the Fredericksburg Radio Post and friend of Lyndon Baines Johnson. Mrs. Hageman has donated much of her father’s correspondence and photographs to the LBJ Museum Library in San Marcos, Texas.
Attachments: Copy of a letter from Norman Dietel to Senator Lyndon B. Johnson, dated May 26, 1957.
Copy of three pages of a letter from Norman Dietel to Senator Lyndon B. Johnson, undated.
Copy of a letter from Senator Lyndon B. Johnson to Norman J. Dietel, dated February 6, 1959.
Copy of a telegram from Norman Dietel to Senator Lyndon B. Johnson, dated October 25, 1960.
Copy of a letter from Lyndon B. Johnson to Norman J. Dietel, dated November 3, 1960.
THIBODEAUX: This recording is part of the LBJ Centennial Celebration Oral History Project sponsored by Texas State University. Today is February 22, 2008. My name is Barbara Thibodeaux. I am interviewing Rosemarie Hageman in San Marcos, Texas.
Mrs. Hageman, even though you have agreed to the terms and conditions of the release pertaining to this interview in writing, will you also verbally acknowledge your acceptance with a yes or a no?
ROSEMARIE HAGEMAN: Yes, of course.
THIBODEAUX: Thank you very much.
We’re talking today about the collection that you donated to the LBJ Museum Library in San Marcos that I believe came from your father, Norman Dietel. Is that correct?
HAGEMAN: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: Would you please tell us the relationship that your father had with Lyndon Johnson?
HAGEMAN: I’m not sure exactly where it began, but I believe it had to do with a letter that he wrote to then Senator Johnson concerning his brother’s World War II plane, the Sky Queen, and I think he was trying to find out some information, and so LBJ helped him in telling him what way to look for his plane. [Three pages of the letter are attached.]
Since my father was a editor of his family newspaper, he contacted LBJ very often by writing him letters and telling him about the community, Fredericksburg, which he lived in. And their relationship continued until his death.
THIBODEAUX: You had mentioned something about your father on occasion dropped in on the ranch. Was this a casual friendly relationship?
HAGEMAN: As a child, I thought it was just another friend because my daddy was very outgoing and wasn’t afraid to ask. Even if he thought the answer might be no, he would drive up to the entrance and tell the security guards he was there and he would go even if LBJ wasn’t expecting him. He would say, “I have some peaches that I want to give to LBJ, and let me come in.” (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: I would certainly let anybody in that said they had peaches. (Both laugh)
HAGEMAN: My dad was a very interesting man, and he was a big supporter of LBJ and he believed that the only way the people in office would know the needs of the people in their community is if they communicated that with him. And so he just wrote on his little typewriter, clicking away—I can still hear him—many interesting letters about the weather and anything that he felt that a senator needed to know about his community. It might’ve dealt with water development and conservation, cost of living. I have several letters that my dad wrote, and he never hesitated to give him any information he felt that would be helpful in his job.
THIBODEAUX: You said that your father supported the dam on the Colorado River. Did he do anything beyond letter writing to bring this forward?
HAGEMAN: I think he was on some board. I don’t remember exactly how that transpired. There might be people in my family that are older than me that would remember exactly. But I know that he was instrumental in suggesting and seeing that the LCRA had some water conservation in place because my mother’s family were farmers and ranchers, and he could see how drought and floods affected just the everyday life of everyday people in small towns.
I have some letters here and I’ll just read:
Long-range water development and conservation. Adopt the programs you have advocated and sponsored all along. Continue similar programs on all Texas streams, such as the LCRA. Impound floodwaters on all major streams as well as other smaller streams and all watersheds.
I remember going to Lake—I think it was Lake Buchanan when that dam was finished, and Dad taking pictures and being so proud of just him smiling. I can just see him standing there smiling. Especially when he would go out—because my dad was newspaper editor and photographer, we would go out, you know, after floods, after snow, after hail, and he would take me with him and we would take pictures of things that had happened in our community that affected all the people that lived there.
THIBODEAUX: So the photographs that your father took that you donated, those are ones that he took mainly?
HAGEMAN: Yes, for the most part. I mean, in the later years maybe there are some other photographers, but I think—actually, during this time that I donated, I would say that all of those are his photographs.
THIBODEAUX: Were there any other issues dear to your father’s heart?
HAGEMAN: Do you mean like I talked about my father’s brother?
THIBODEAUX: Yes, or any other issues that he may have discussed with Lyndon Johnson.
HAGEMAN: I can’t recall anything specific that he may have talked about previously, but I know he just—he believed that all people that lived in a community would serve that community best by buying locally. If you go out of your community, then the money goes out, and so he talked a little bit about how you could help communities keep their money locally. But I don’t have anything written down like that. That was just a philosophy that he had that I’m sure he talked with him about.
THIBODEAUX: Do you have any personal memories about going out to the ranch? You mentioned about going to the gate.
HAGEMAN: Yes. On one visit, I remember it was just my dad and I, and we went to the backdoor of the little office—I’ve seen it on LBJ specials that they’ve had recently. And I remember that little room, and LBJ was a big man. I remember him being big, and my dad said I could go outside and play with the dog and then LBJ told me that the dog was nice. So we played outside, and I remember the swimming pool was very inviting. So I went back to the door a couple of times and asked if I could please go swimming. (laughs) Of course, I had no suit, but I think LBJ said I could come back some other time when I was tugging on my dad’s leg and begging, “Please.”
In his later years when he was no longer president but was living at the ranch, LBJ loved movies and he’d made one of his airplane hangers into a movie theater, and so he had his two recliners up there in the front. And then we would—he would invite people from the community, and so in my later, I guess, college years, I can remember going to a couple of movies out there with my family, and LBJ would come in and he would talk with everybody after the movie. Before the movie he was I think interested in sitting down and watching the movie.
THIBODEAUX: Do you remember any of the movies that he liked to watch?
HAGEMAN: No, I don’t remember. I wish I could remember. My husband did go with me one time when we were probably dating or engaged. He would probably remember because he has a better memory.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, and going back to the letters, you talked about the ones that your father wrote to Lyndon Johnson. Was there anything about responses? Did Lyndon Johnson always respond? Did he make any requests of your father?
HAGEMAN: Well, I can read a little bit. “We’ve discussed the air force officials. Your desire to obtain the records of your brother’s World War II plane, the Sky Queen.” And he goes on to say he needed some more information and he ends with, “Take care of yourself, Norman. Top of the world to you,” and then he would sign it.
Let’s see if I can find another one. This is:
November 7, 1959. Dear Norman, Thanks very much for sending me the picture and I am looking forward to the others. Thanks very much to your mother and Mrs. Wheinheimer for supplying the bouquets, and thanks even more for your wonderful friendship.
Let’s see. There’s a couple in between here:
December 14, 1959. Dear Norman, Thanks so much for the beautiful color pictures of Lopez Mateo’s visit. I guess that was about the biggest affair we have ever had at the ranch, and they will certainly be a welcome addition to our scrapbook of mementos.
And then it goes on with some other information about, “I’ve been trying all fall to come by for a visit, but it seems that something always happens to stop me. I think this is the busiest fall I’ve ever spent in Texas,” and this is while he’s still senator. “Kindest regards to a wonderful friend and warmest best wishes for a most enjoyable holiday season.”
Then when LBJ did—I can’t find that right now—but when LBJ did become elected to be president, he did invite my dad to come. Now, here’s a Western Union that he sent to LBJ. [A copy of the telegram is attached.]
THIBODEAUX: I’m sorry. I like—I just read the top line. (Both laugh)
HAGEMAN: Go ahead and read it.
THIBODEAUX: It says, “Dear Lyndon, Yes, I am not only going to vote for you and Senator—“
HAGEMAN: Kennedy.
THIBODEAUX: “—Kennedy, but I am openly boosting and working for your election.”
HAGEMAN: Um hmm. “It will be a tough battle locally.” (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: That is interesting. I always wanted to ask about that since he seems to have a democratic leaning. Do you remember what the politics were like in Fredericksburg?
HAGEMAN: Republican, very strong, even his family. Yes. But my father was not afraid of being different, not afraid of voicing his convictions. I can remember him, a man with a big heart, you know. He was kind of an intimidating man. He had very broad shoulders and he was tall, but he would pick up hitchhikers (laughs) with kids in the car, something people wouldn’t do nowadays for sure.
But we had a rent house and if somebody got behind on their rent, he would just let them—you know, they were having tough times, so he’d forego his paycheck whenever something like that.
My dad really did think that LBJ was the best man for the job, and he was crushed when President Kennedy was killed. In fact, he was in Dallas when that happened, and that affected him for days. I remember as a child him being very sad and depressed.
I think he knew how that affected LBJ too, how difficult that was.
My dad was supposed to go to the inauguration when he became vice president, but my mother was very ill with cancer and he had to write him and tell him that he wouldn’t be able to attend. That was a sad time.
I found another letter here:
November 14, 1960, Dear Norman, My heart is very, very full. It’s full of appreciation for those friends all over the country who gave Senator Kennedy and me their support. But my deepest appreciation . . . [Interviewee is saying, “Dot, dot, dot.”] my gratitude . . . [Interviewee is saying, “Dot, dot, dot.”] is for that backing you and my other friends at home in Texas gave me. And I want to say a special thanks for your telegram of October 25. Sincerely, LBJ.
THIBODEAUX: Is that the telegram we were just looking at?
HAGEMAN: I think—yeah, the Western Union telegram. I didn’t read the whole thing, but I can if you need me to.
THIBODEAUX: I think that’s something we might like to get a copy of—
HAGEMAN: Okay.
THIBODEAUX: —to include. It sounds interesting.
HAGEMAN: Yeah. But we had a Western Union at the shop, at the Radio Post, our newspaper.
THIBODEAUX: So was that challenging for your father to be managing editor of a newspaper when he’s so—had democratic leanings in such a republican area?
HAGEMAN: Yes. I think—like I said, my father wasn’t afraid of being, you know, different. I think if you’re a newspaper editor, you have to look at all the facts. I know it became an issue sometimes, but I don’t think it was—he still spoke to his relatives. It wasn’t something that divided them completely. They still loved him. (laughs) Which in some families, politics just—it’s hard.
Oh, here’s the invitation. Oh, that’s not the invitation, that’s the birth of their little John, Kennedys’ son.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, they sent an announcement to your father. So he knew the Kennedys also?
HAGEMAN: Well, I don’t know—I think he may have met them, but I’m not positive. I think—just because my father wrote letters. In those days I guess you could just—see, look at the address. “Mr. Norman J. Dietel, Publisher of the Radio Post, Fredericksburg, Texas.”
THIBODEAUX: No zip code, no street address. (Both laugh)
HAGEMAN: Yeah. Because it was a small town.
Oh, this is a list of—I could copy this to the museum—no, that’s not it. There was a list of conservation acts that LBJ got passed.
This is my favorite picture.
THIBODEAUX: And does the museum have a copy of that?
HAGEMAN: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, okay.
HAGEMAN: That’s my dad taking a picture in the background, and this is at the barbecue.
THIBODEAUX: That is so cool to see him. It’s like he’s up in the tree almost.
HAGEMAN: He was always standing on—I think he was standing on this chuck wagon, see.
THIBODEAUX: Yes. Yes. I see it now in the background and the barbecue. You wouldn’t happen to know who those people are, do you?
HAGEMAN: This is—I do not know who this man is, but this man is Birke. He owned a peach—let’s see. Wayman something. No, that’s not right. Maybe that man’s name is Wayman, and this I believe his name is Birke. He owned a peach farm, I believe, I’m not sure. Of course, this was people in the community of Stonewall there, where the LBJ Ranch is.
THIBODEAUX: So do you know if Lyndon Johnson combined these picnics and barbecues with maybe more political famous colleagues and just people from the community?
HAGEMAN: I don’t know the answer to that, but from my memory of looking through the pictures, yes, I think so just because I recognize some people, but then I don’t recognize other people. I’m assuming, like, some people look like the Secret Service.
THIBODEAUX: I always forget. Yeah, they’re always around.
HAGEMAN: But like this picture is from I believe the church there in Stonewall. That’s my dad, and that’s LBJ with his first granddaughter, I believe. There’s Lady Bird. I did go to church with him sometimes when he took pictures if LBJ was going to be there. If he was at home at the ranch, he could make sure that he covered.
THIBODEAUX: Do you remember what church that is?
HAGEMAN: I believe this is the Catholic church, but he would go to Fredericksburg to St. Barnabas and he would go to I believe it’s Xavier in Stonewall. And he knew the priests, he knew the pastors of that small community, and so he visited different ones. He didn’t always go to the same church.
THIBODEAUX: Were they all Catholic?
HAGEMAN: No. There were Lutheran churches, Catholic churches, and then there was St. Barnabas Episcopal in Fredericksburg that I know he attended. I think he would spread out his visits because he was invited by those communities—those church communities to come. And I think he was—now, these are some from—I have several from Mrs. Johnson but mostly thank you notes. Let’s see.
Dear Mr. and Mrs. Dietel, Thank you both so very much for remembering our anniversary with such a nice telegram. It was a special day for us and your thoughtfulness made it even more so. Sincerely, Lady Bird.
That was November 20 of ’67.
This is when LBJ was—I think this was after his heart attack and he was at the Brook General Army Hospital in San Antonio. It doesn’t have a date on that, but—oh, here it is, “March 3, 1970,” so that was after he had retired to the ranch.
THIBODEAUX: That was his second heart attack?
HAGEMAN: I don’t know when he had his first, so.
THIBODEAUX: I think it was way back in the ‘50s.
HAGEMAN: Oh, yeah.
THIBODEAUX: And then I think he—
HAGEMAN: This was after he had retired and had moved to the ranch. And then this is, “October 1, ’70. Thanks for caring about the success of the seminar and the park dedication and doing so much to assure it. I know how much it means to have interest and help of friends like you. I just want you to know I’m grateful. Sincerely, LBJ.”
Are you familiar with the park in Stonewall?
THIBODEAUX: Yes.
HAGEMAN: And then in Fredericksburg we renamed our park Lady Bird Park. This is:
September 28, ’71. Dear Norman, Thank you for telling me about Mr. Dan Moreno and his thoughts relative to the LBJ State Park particularly with regard to the animals. If you also have the master plan of the Minnesota Zoological Park, which Mr. Moreno asked Dr. Ogilvie [spelling?] to send to you and can send it to me, I will look it over. Meanwhile your continuing interest in us and all that concerns us is very much appreciated. Sincerely, LBJ.
Okay. To the end here. Oh, the rest of my letters I think are—here’s his press pass. Cattle auction. A lot of times if he wanted to go in, he would just put his press whatever—sticker, bumper sticker in the front of the window.
THIBODEAUX: So as a person in the media, your father had unusual access to the president, it sounds like.
HAGEMAN: I don’t know if everybody did, but Daddy didn’t take—I can remember him arguing at the gate if there was somebody new and being persistent. He was a persistent person. Here’s the Texas Parks and Wildlife list of the major conservation—I think my dad had requested some conservation legislation passed during the presidency of LBJ. So here they are, there’s a lot. Here’s a—this is from John Connally, a thank you note for his, I guess, Western Union birthday card. He wrote—it had, “Dear Mr. Dietel—” and he scratched it out and wrote, “Norman,” on top of it. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: Is that a family photo of your family?
HAGEMAN: No. That’s John Connally’s family.
THIBODEAUX: I’m sorry. So what was your father’s relationship with John Connally?
HAGEMAN: I think he had met with him personally too. I don’t know, it was probably as close as with LBJ.
Let’s see. Oh, here’s a telegram from Richard Nixon. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: That’s interesting.
HAGEMAN: And here he is with Hubert Humphrey probably at something that was either at Stonewall or some event in Fredericksburg. Here from Ronald Reagan.
THIBODEAUX: Well, your father must’ve written a lot of letters. (Both laugh)
HAGEMAN: He did. Here’s from Senator Kennedy—or here’s a letter to Senator Kennedy. And there’s the first Mr. Bush and Barbara. Okay. And that’s it.
Okay. What else can you ask me?
THIBODEAUX: You had mentioned the Johnson daughters, and I know that they were older than you, but what can you tell me about—do you remember anything about them?
HAGEMAN: One of their visits to Fredericksburg—and I don’t remember which one—they came by the house and I believe it was Luci—they’re probably about ten years—maybe a little bit older than I am. They’re closer to my brother’s age—played our piano in the front living room. I imagine that LBJ was there and maybe Lady Bird, but I don’t remember. I just remember them playing our piano and Daddy thinking that was a big deal, and that was because he loved music. I can’t remember if he got out his violin and played with her too or not, but, yeah.
He covered our walls. We had a very long—we lived in a two-story Victorian house that was my great-grandparents’ house and had a very, very long hall. It was a long rectangular type construction, and he had pictures of LBJ and people he thought was important, people that he had taken pictures of during his time as photographer and editor of our newspaper.
THIBODEAUX: What about the Radio Post? Do you have any memories of just his life as editor of the Post?
HAGEMAN: My father’s father started the business after his—he was a schoolteacher, a principal, a superintendent and traveled around, and after five children my grandmother said, “I’m not moving again.” (laughs) So he went to work for another paper at the time that was in Fredericksburg and then decided that he wanted to start his own. So it became a family business. My grandmother worked there and even into her old age, and if my dad didn’t come pick up Oma, she would walk the two or three miles when she was ninety years old to come down to the shop.
But my father had five siblings—or there were five siblings in the family, and except for his brother that was shot down as a pilot in World War II, all of them worked at the newspaper at one time or another, and most everybody’s—all the children did something whether it was stuffing newspapers—we called it stuffing. You had to put the middle section into the outer section. In Fredericksburg growing up, we also printed funeral notices. When someone in the community died, they would inform the newspaper. We’d print up a little notice, and then one of my jobs was to deliver it to the counters of all the businesses in Fredericksburg on the street.
Another job I had was to tie a string around a stack of newspapers that were going to a certain location and put them in our truck to deliver to the post office.
There were lots of challenges, you know, owning a family business. One time our newspaper press broke down, and my dad had to drive to Dallas for several months. Every week he had to—because it was a weekly paper—he had to drive up to Dallas to have it printed there in order to have it—and he would drive all night.
He worked a lot. His work ethic was very high, and if you open up any—when all the family became elderly and it was obvious that none of the young people were going to take over the business, the decision was made to sell the newspaper to the current newspaper, and it kept part of our name. It’s the Standard Radio Post is what it’s called now, but the work ethic of that newspaper is still—it’s just different. It’s not the same as any other newspaper I ever open up. It actually is a community newspaper and there’s not a picture that’s two-by-two. If you open up any day of the week still, those pictures—you can actually see who it is a picture of, (laughs) which was real important to my dad because community was everything to him. It helped our newspaper survive, and it was important that the people in the community could depend on them to write stories and cover events that were happening locally. So if you left town, you knew what had happened.
THIBODEAUX: It sounds like he made sure that Lyndon Johnson was a part of that community.
HAGEMAN: Yeah. I don’t know if that’s unique to just Fredericksburg. I’m sure it’s unique to all small towns that have survived. So many small towns have disappeared, but when farming and ranching have gotten difficult and lots of farmers and ranchers—my grandparents’ ranch included—it’s being sold off in little pieces, it’s kind of sad.
But when that happened in Fredericksburg, the community didn’t just dry up. They now are a major tourist industry. You know, they could’ve—but they were creative and they were problem-solvers. What can we do in this town to help keep it going, to keep it alive? So it’s definitely changed from the time that my dad and his family was starting off there.
THIBODEAUX: I live in Wimberley, and—
HAGEMAN: Yeah.
THIBODEAUX: —we kind of go through the same thing.
HAGEMAN: Yeah.
THIBODEAUX: I think that’s about all the questions that I have, unless you have another story that comes to mind.
HAGEMAN: Probably after we end this interview, (Both laugh) I’ll think of something else to tell you.
THIBODEAUX: +I’ll keep hitting the button. Well, then, we’ll go ahead and stop there, unless you think of something else, and I’ll just turn it on again real fast.
HAGEMAN: Okay.
(End of interview)