Oral History Interview - Joan W Irelan - November 27, 1986
Interview with Joan W. Irelan
Interviewer: Diane C. Watts
Transcriber: Diane C. Watts
Date of Interview: November 27, 1986
Location: Ms. Irelan’s Home, 13649 Weald Green, Dallas, TX
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Begin Tape 1, Side 1
Diane C. Watts: This oral history project is done for the Southwest Texas State University Honors Program. The date is November 27, 1986, and the interview is taking place at Ms. Joan Irelan’s home in Dallas. I, Diane Watts, will be interviewing Joan Irelan, an attorney and mother of three [children], a graduate of Columbia University, and who received her Juris Doctorate at Hofstra University.
Okay. I would first like to start off with where you were born?
Joan W. Irelan: I was born in Stamford, Connecticut, on April 1, 1930.
Watts: Were you born in a hospital?
Irelan: Yes, I was born in a hospital.
Watts: Were there any complications?
Irelan: No, there were no complications; in fact, the birth was very fast.
Watts: You grew up in Stamford, Connecticut?
Irelan: I lived in Old Greenwich at that time, and I spent the time of my birth until the time I was about nineteen, when I moved into New York, I lived in Old Greenwich all the time and went to the Greenwich, Connecticut schools.
Watts: What was your family like? Your father and your mother?
Irelan: We came from a—I came from a working-class family. My father worked on the New Haven Railroad at the power plant that was located at Casco. He had worked there for many, many years, and of course, Mother, at that time it was not considered appropriate for women to work, and Mother never did work throughout my life.
Watts: So your father supported the family.
Irelan: Dad supported the family, yes. We never had very much, but we always had enough, and we always had food and clothes and heat. I can remember now, looking back, that there were certain days of the week—we lived right on the shore, and Dad did a lot of fishing and clamming to augment the family larder. I didn’t realize it at the time, but there were several days in the week where we would have clam chowder, and then Mother would make apple dumplings. I appreciate it now, but I didn’t then.
Watts: What was school like for you?
Irelan: I was—school, I loved school. It provided an escape for me because Mother and Dad, neither one of them had an education beyond high school, and I had an insatiable desire to learn, and I spent most of my time at the local library, and I read the stacks out. By the time I was twelve, I had gone through books that really I shouldn’t have been reading, Dostoevsky and Tolstoy, at the age of twelve because I really didn’t totally appreciate them. However, I was a voracious reader, and I enjoyed my studies very much. I was never a popular girl.
Watts: Did your family support you in your studies?
Irelan: No. Because girls weren’t supposed to be bright; girls were supposed to be popular and get married and have children, period. In fact, I had to struggle against my mother to go to college.
Watts: Did you have any brothers or sisters?
Irelan: I had one brother that was thirteen years older than I, and I really never knew him very well. He married when I was about nineteen or twenty, I think, and he moved to California shortly thereafter. We really never had a chance to get very close.
Watts: Was he encouraged in his studies?
Irelan: Yes, he was. Regrettably, he was thrown out of two schools; I think the more my father wanted him to succeed, the [more] determined he was to fail. It was one of those unfortunate circumstances of a very poor father-son relationship.
Watts: So you continued with your studies, despite your family’s objections.
Irelan: I was not able to go to college when I finished high school; of course, at that time, there were no such things as student loans and grants and what have you. I had no money. I was very frustrated and very discouraged. I moved from home and moved into New York. Before I did that, I worked my way through business school in Manhattan and was asked to stay there and teach, and I did until I discovered that my students were leaving and making more money than I was; I left very quickly. I then took a job in Wall Street, which I enjoyed very much, it was very exciting. I was then twenty-one, but then I became very ill with viral pneumonia and then, a year later, hepatitis.
I worked as a secretary in New York. I worked my way up from the stenographic pool in various organizations until I got up to be the executive secretary of a vice-president of a large national corporation. Through all of this, I was alternately living in New York and commuting from Connecticut and generally benefitting, if you can put it that way, from what New York had to offer in the way of nightlife, nightclubs, restaurants, plays, theater, the works, you name it.
Watts: Museums and culture?
Irelan: At that point in time, I wasn’t terribly interested in culture. Sartees [spelling unclear], the 21 [Club], The Blue Angel, all the theaters’ first nights, that was fine. Culture wasn’t on my agenda. Then I got very bored with the whole business because I realized it was pretty much a waste of time. Quite frankly, one restaurant is pretty much like the other, one night club is pretty much like the other, and you can only wear so many clothes. I closed my charge accounts at Lord & Taylor, Saks Fifth, and Bonwit Tiller. I had $500, and I went to my father, and I said, “I am going back to school.” [I] took the entrance exam to Columbia [and] was accepted. My mother had a fit, and I’m sure there was a terrible domestic quarrel, but my father simply took the bankbooks and went off and helped me to make up the amount of money required to get in that first semester.
Watts: How did you afford the first semester?
Irelan: That’s it with the $500, and Dad, having worked on the railroad, he had retired by this time, was able to get me a pass on the railroad from New York to Connecticut, and my mother and father put up with me and gave me room and board during the time I was in school. This is a little bit difficult on everybody because, remember, I went back to school when I was twenty-five, and for the most part, with the exception of two semesters when I had very late labs, I commuted. I did most of my intense studying on the train. But I paid my way through the first semester, and I realized that was about all I had. As soon as I got in Columbia, I immediately started trying to fetch a scholarship. My first semester grades were in, I think I had four A’s, and I think philosophy sunk me. I think I came out with a C in philosophy, one of two C’s I got in college. The other, by the way, was in physics. I hated that subject. Anyway, I went to the scholarship committee and asked for assistance, and I got it. I went through Columbia the rest of the time on scholarship. Now, that was merit scholarship, so every time I took an exam, I saw a dollar sign. I had to maintain my grade average, and it had to be very high because the competition was fierce. During the vacations and during the summer, I worked all over New York City as a temporary secretary. I worked at the racing newspaper; I worked at an old people’s home near school where I could get meals; I worked at an egg wholesaling house; I worked at Kennecott Copper two or three summers.
Watts: And during this time, you were commuting back and forth from Connecticut to New York?
Irelan: Yes, from Connecticut to New York. It’s not all that far. It takes about an hour by train, once you get on the train, but you have to take two buses to get from Columbia over to the station through Harlem. Then get on the 125 Street Station, and it takes about an hour after you get on the train.
Watts: Did they consider your high school grades when they—
Irelan: No, actually my high school grades weren’t all that bad; they weren’t all that good. I think they ran a B average.
Watts: But you weren’t a National Merit honors student or anything?
Irelan: I was no big whoop, not at all. But I wanted to go back to college very, very badly. I can remember walking through the gates of Columbia and thinking, Well, I got my second chance, and maybe that’s all I’m going to have, but I’m certainly going to try.
Watts: So you ended up majoring in what?
Irelan: I majored in six different subjects. My problem is I liked them all; it was like letting a kid loose in a candy shop. I can’t remember, I think I started out in math, chemistry, botany, I finally did end up majoring in French; I was a pre-med student for a while, but then I decided that I was going to get married. Major error, but I decided I was going to get married. So, I switched my major at the very end and in eighteen months completed a French major because I was relatively close to it. I admit, if I could have passed organic chemistry, I might have ended up in botany, I enjoyed it very much.
Watts: But you minored in botany?
Irelan: Essentially, yes, although they did not have a major-minor system at that time.
Watts: Where did you meet your husband?
Irelan: At Columbia.
Watts: His name?
Irelan: Arnold Watts.
Watts: What was his major?
Irelan: Physics. (Laughs)
Watts: It should have been a forewarning.
Irelan: I should have known better.
Watts: So, you graduated?
Irelan: Yes, I did. Graduated in 1961, as I recall; all that is sort of dim at this point.
Watts: Did he graduate before you or after?
Irelan: He graduated one semester after I did. We were married—no, wait a minute, he graduated one semester before I did, and we were married, and I finished my last semester commuting from Northport Long Island into Columbia.
Watts: How many years did it take you to finish up at Columbia?
Irelan: I think it was five, actually, that it took me to finish.
Watts: You went through on scholarship basis?
Irelan: There was no other way I could have gone.
Watts: What happened at the end? Did you get inducted into some sort of honor society?
Irelan: As I said, we had been married in June. Arnold finished in June of ’60, and I had one semester so actually, technically I finished in February of ’61. We then left for California en route to Germany. When we were out in California, I received a telegram that I had been nominated into Phi Beta Kappa. I elected to join Phi Beta Kappa. I was utterly astounded, I was utterly astounded. One of the regrets that I have is that there was no possible way that I could fly back to take part in the initiation ceremonies.
Watts: But you are a member?
Irelan: Yes, I am a member of Phi Beta Kappa.
Watts: One of your sole accomplishments in life. (Laughs)
Irelan: I think they made a mistake.
Watts: So you headed off to California?
Irelan: We were in California for about four months. Arnold was in training for—he was with General Electric. He had been with General Electric before he went back to school, and he went back to General Electric. We were sent overseas after about six months and lived in Germany in a small town, in a small walled city called Ingolstadt, between Munich and Nuremberg, on the Danube. And it was there that my oldest daughter was born.
Watts: Her name?
Irelan: Laura Louise Watts.
Watts: Date of her birth?
Irelan: Oh dear? April 9, I can never remember the years, 1962, I believe. [The date of Laura’s birth turned out to be April 9, 1962]
Watts: We can check on that later. What was it like living in Germany?
Irelan: Very different, I would strongly advise anyone who does not appreciate America to spend some time living, not with the military, but on the economy, as we did in Germany. You do not realize the freedom that you have in this county. One cannot move from town to town in Germany without registering with the police department. At the time we were there no—there was one supermarket in town, but you bought—and it was not customary to have an icebox or a washing machine. You bought supplies for one day. You bought two eggs and three slices of cheese from [the] local store on the corner. And you walked back and forth with your little fishnet bag, you didn’t get carrying bags. They did not give you bags, you brought your little fishnet bag, otherwise you had to carry it just open. The Germans were funny, they could always tell an American household by the amount of garbage, and it certainly did, at an early stage in our marriage, sharpen up my buying habits. It was a different experience, a different way of life.
Watts: What about the poultry? Isn’t the poultry cut differently?
Irelan: It is not at all unusual to get poultry that has not been what they call “blaufardrick” [spelling unclear]; there is a distinction. Now, I knew a little bit of German, I was at this time more comfortable speaking German than I was French, but I saw “blaufardrick” on some chickens, and I didn’t think very much. I picked a chicken out and came home. I was about to put it in the oven only to discover it had never been drawn. In other words, the insides were still in it. So, fortunately, during the [missing word] my mother did a lot of canning, and she was doing some chickens at one point, and she said, “Joan, you may have to do this someday; I want you to do one of these.” And she showed me how to draw a chicken. And so many, many years later in Germany, there I was with a chicken on my table, and believe me, as I have often said, no experience in life is ever wasted. I was able to sit down and draw the chicken.
Watts: Did you work in Germany at all?
Irelan: I taught at the Berlitz Spreichenstruler [spelling unclear], the same type of thing they have in this country; they taught English to Germans. I did some work there; well, actually, what I did was do enough work to pay for my German lessons. It was a tradeoff.
Watts: So one of the reasons why you didn’t work, yourself, would you think, is because it was part of the family ideal?
Irelan: Well, I had no intention of working. The reason I got married was—of course, at the time in Germany while we were there, I was pregnant with Laura, my first child. I really had no intention of working, nor did my husband want me to work. I intended to have a family and to spend my time raising a family.
Watts: What time did you leave Germany, what year?
Irelan: Well, it was some place in the area of—first we left in ’63. And then went back again that same year, and then we came back permanently. Between ’63 and ’64.
Watts: Why was the decision made to move back to America?
Irelan: Because we had one child and I was expecting a second child. We really did not want the children to grow up without knowing their grandparents. If we had stayed there very much longer, we were afraid we would become expatriates
Watts: What was your marriage like at this time?
Irelan: Fine.
Watts: So you moved back, and where did you settle?
Irelan: In Connecticut, initially, because when we came back, Arnold was without a job, he had to find a job. He did, and we went from Connecticut, where my family was located, to Shoreham, Long Island [New York] and spent the next fifteen years there, fourteen years.
Watts: What was going on that time between, well, was he working steadily during these fifteen years?
Irelan: He was working steadily, but he worked a rotating shift: one week days, and the next week afternoons, and the next week nights, and then back to days. And it was extremely difficult on him and on the family. Then it was about—I think it must have been around 1973 or ‘72; the research was being cut back at Brookhaven lab, and there had been substantial layoffs. We got caught in one of the layoffs, and he was laid off. He was then hired on in [a] different section of the lab, but he did not care for the work.
Watts: How many children did you have at this time?
Irelan: At which time? At 1972? I had four children.
Watts: Four children and the father laid off, and you weren’t working.
Irelan: No. I was not working, nor at this time did I have any skills with which to work because I had not been—well, I had started doing some tutorial reading work, remedial reading work in the schools, but on a volunteer basis, but I really had not been actively employed.
Watts: What made you decide to go into law school?
Irelan: I was still married at the time when I made the decision to go into law school. I had worked as a legal secretary, and I had enjoyed it. I was now about forty-five, forty-four–forty-five; if I was going to do anything, it had to be something that would not be limited to age, and I thought that law would not be a limitation. My science background was obscure at this point; it had been so long that to go back into that, I thought, had been almost prohibitive. So I decided to apply to law school, and I took the LSAT, and after I took it, I thought, Well, I could take it again, but I might just as well as save my money and buy another pair of shoes. Which is what it turned out to be because I think my score only went up ten or fifteen points. I’ve been out of school now for fifteen years.
Watts: What made you decide to apply to law school; what was the reasoning behind it?
Irelan: The reasoning behind it was that I felt that I had to have something with the layoffs that were going on, and with four small children and no means of supporting them, I felt that I could not afford the luxury any longer of just being a housewife. Somebody’s got to work.
Watts: Well, what about your LSAT score? It wasn’t good enough to get in?
Irelan: I didn’t think it was. However, I was accepted at Hofstra, which absolutely astounded me.
Watts: At Hofstra University?
Irelan: At Hofstra University. I guess they must have gone on my collegiate record more than anything else.
Watts: So being a member of Phi Beta Kappa helped?
Irelan: It didn’t hurt; there is no question about that.
Watts: What did your husband think of the idea? Was he behind you?
Irelan: No. He was very upset.
Watts: That you applied?
Irelan: That I applied to begin with, and when I was accepted, that was it.
Watts: So you sort of did this without his knowing it?
Irelan: No, I didn’t do it without him knowing it. I did it with him knowing it.
Watts: And not necessarily approving it.
Irelan: Absolutely disapproving it.
Watts: What happened when you were accepted? Did you start going?
Irelan: Yes, I started going. I had to commute 120 miles a day. It was extremely difficult. I was absolutely exhausted, and at this time your father, Arnold, and I were separated.
Watts: What had happened?
Irelan: Well, just a matter of speaking, the marriage went to pieces. Not because I went to law school, that was just a participating factor; the disintegration had been going on for quite some time. But I think perhaps the fact that I would make a judgment and act on it that he was absolutely opposed to, and I couldn’t understand why he was opposed to it, probably was the last straw.
Watts: How did you manage with the kids at this time?
Irelan: With great difficulty. I had to withdraw from law school. I spoke to the dean, and I had to withdraw from law school at Christmastime, after my first finals. I simply could not handle the workload, the emotional load, and commuting. So I reentered the following fall after divorce had been filed, and Arnold put an ex parte order on that I could not move the children from the jurisdiction because I had hoped to have been able to move in closer to school. However, I couldn’t do that until we had a custody hearing prior to the actual divorce, which was in November, and then I was able to move into school. Finding a place to live was extremely difficult because nobody wanted a woman without work and with four children, but we found a place near school, and we moved in November. The actual divorce took place sometime in March of the following year.
Watts: How did your family react, your parents, to the divorce?
Irelan: They disapproved. I think I was the first woman in our family not only to go to college, but also get a divorce.
Watts: I guess the two go hand in hand. (Laughs)
Irelan: Maybe so.
Watts: What did they think of you going back to school to become a lawyer?
Irelan: Well, I never asked.
Watts: I’m sure opinions were given.
Irelan: I’m sure opinions were given; of course, they, I think, had decided long since that I had a few screws loose anyhow.
Watts: So, how was law school?
Irelan: Horrible. It was extremely difficult. The one thing I did accomplish is that my children never complained about homework because I could never finish mine. We used to do our homework in the living room together all the time, all of us. Then after the first year, I was able to get work at the city’s attorney’s office a couple of afternoons a week, which helped bring a little bit more money in.
Watts: What was the diet like? (Laughs)
Irelan: (Laughs) We had, in one form or another, we had spaghetti and tomato sauce five nights a week. And if we were lucky, we might have hamburger on another night. And the seventh night, well, it was usually macaroni and tuna fish. And I will say this: the children never complained. Never.
Watts: Only until we started getting meat in our tomato sauce! (Laughs)
Irelan: When we became affluent, we put meat in the tomato sauce; the kids didn’t like it.
Watts: So law school was horrible.
Irelan: Yes, it was.
Watts: The divorce came through.
Irelan: The divorce came through; it was a very difficult period of time. However, I think the children and I were closer then than we had ever been before. Unfortunately, the last semester of law school, the last year of law school, I lost my eleven-year-old son. That was very difficult, but I finished law school because I had no money to sit in a corner and cry. I had to finish law school. I realized I was in no condition to take a bar exam. At that time, it was about ’78, New York and the area around New Jersey, Connecticut, were all going through a severe economic crisis. There were very few jobs. Because, at this time, Arnold was not working—
Watts: Had he been working for the majority of time that you were in law school?
Irelan: He had been working the majority of time I was in law school. Was he not working?
Watts: Well, if I remember correctly, he wasn’t working and not paying child support.
Irelan: He wasn’t working, but he was paying at that time; it wasn’t until we moved that he—well, in any event, I decided that I had to have work. I sent letters out to Texas, and I received a reply from the Federal Reserve Bank in Dallas, and they flew me down here and interviewed me and hired me, paid for my move down here, so down I came. I’ve been here ever since.
Watts: What was the move from New York to Texas—how did Texas strike you?
Irelan: Very strange. It is very different. It is a different attitude; it was hard to get used to, and I probably still am not and will never have same headset or outlook because I spent so much of my life in the Northeast. The Northeast is understatement and dark clothes and conservative, and Texas is relatively flamboyant by comparison, and I’m not accustomed to it. So, I really don’t fit in terribly well. But, I didn’t fit in there either, so it’s—
Watts: Where do you work now?
Irelan: I work for myself. I was managing a real estate office up until the beginning of July when we had to close the office, and from July until the first of November I was involved in winding down the affairs of the business. Essentially, I have my license, and so I’ve made a number of friends, and I have done private practice for a while, about two years ago, so I just picked up where I had left off.
Watts: From your job at the Federal Reserve; from your first move to Dallas, you moved into Austin, correct?
Irelan: That’s right.
Watts: How did you find Austin in comparison to Dallas?
Irelan: I prefer Austin to Dallas. It is, I think, probably because the university is there. The university pervades the city. It is very different than Dallas. It is not—I do have the feeling that Dallas is extremely superficial.
Watts: And from Austin you moved back up to Dallas.
Irelan: Yes. I moved back to Dallas in 1983. And I have been in Dallas ever since.
Watts: What are your children doing now?
Irelan: My oldest girl, the girl who was born in Germany, managed to put herself through Bryn Mawr and then was accepted into the PhD program in the University of Pennsylvania. She is on a teaching grant, and I think she is in her third year, I lose track of time. It is a five- or six-year program. So, that she has another bit to go and right now is very depressed because things aren’t going quickly enough.
Watts: She is getting her PhD in what?
Irelan: Biochemistry.
Watts: Was her father very much for her?
Irelan: No, her father was very much upset. Her father felt that she should major in music because, after all, it is not feminine to be a biochemist.
Watts: What about the older boy, Jonathan?
Irelan: Jonathan will be graduating this May, come hell or high water, from UTD, and he majored in physics, and he has now decided he is going on the graduate school and hopes to go into either Penn State or the University of Minnesota.
Watts: And your younger daughter?
Irelan: My younger daughter is a double major in English and history at Southwest Texas. She has discussed going to law school, and I have suggested for several reasons that she consider going through the paralegal program at Southwest Texas and then work briefly and decide whether she wants to commit herself to the legal field.
Watts: What do you feel is your greatest asset in life?
Irelan: I’m stubborn; I don’t give up very easily. And this is both good and bad because there are times where you just have to give up.
Watts: You used to say that your children were your greatest asset in life.
Irelan: As far as exterior outside of myself, my children are the most valuable thing I have. At one point, when going to a banker trying to borrow money, he wanted to know what collateral I had. I looked him straight in the eye, and I said, “My children.” Of course, he didn’t think that was funny. (Laughs) I really think that is the only thing that counts, everything I have really has been put into my kids. And that is the way it has to be.
Watts: Do you think it was worthwhile?
Irelan: Without question. They have to support me. (Laughs)
Watts: So you don’t feel that your marriage was a total loss, in that respect?
Irelan: Nothing in this life is a total loss. No, it was not a total loss. Actually, my former husband and myself have a relatively good relationship. He has not remarried; I think it would be better for him if he did. He probably will.
Watts: Where is he currently?
Irelan: He is currently at Princeton, New Jersey. But he is not working, which is not good for him.
Watts: It is not too good for all of us, really.
Irelan: Well, it’s been difficult because after Matthew died, my youngest son, his father, between the divorce and the death of his son, really went into a state of shock. He did not work for seven years. Then he worked for two years in Princeton, but that research grant ran out, and he has not worked now for about a year. The longer he stays out of work, the more difficult it is to get back into the field.
Watts: Is there anything in particular you would like to say for future prosperity? (Laughs)
Irelan: Well, I’ll tell you, I think the prime thing that I have learned is that you go on going on, and that is the name of the game.
Watts: Well, thank you very much.
Irelan: No charge.
End of interview