Oral History Transcript - James A. Wilson - November 18, 1991
Interview with James Wilson
Interviewer: Mary A. Allen
Transcriber: Mary A. Allen
Date of Interview: November 18, 1991
Location: Dr. Wilson’s Office, Taylor-Murphy Building
Mary A. Allen: This November 18, 1991, and we are in Dr. James Wilson's office [Taylor-Murphy Building]. He is the chairman of the History Department at Southwest Texas State University. Dr. Wilson, would you describe the Southwest Texas History Department when you first came here? Size –
Dr. James Wilson: When I first came here in 1970, September of 1970 it was, I believe, about twenty-eight FTE (full time equivalents). I have some statistics that I will share with you, but our student numbers were quite high. In fact, when I got here our numbers were higher than they were, about 8930 students for the total year of 1970-1971. We went up to 9842 students in 1972-73, and then we did not achieve that (we had 8445 in 1969-70) level, well one year in 1974-75 we had 8983, but then you go on until 1983-84 and we don't exceed 8930 again. So, I got in on the boom of the late [19]60s or early [19]70s.
Ms. Allen: Would you have the number of history majors as well?
Dr. Wilson: Not in this list. I don't have that. I do know that in terms of graduate enrollment we had ninety-seven in 1970, we had 101 in 1972 and we have not achieved that 101 since then. So, I got here during the midst of that late sixties and early seventies boom in the humanities, generally. of course, after that it tapered off, and in fact our numbers went down considerably. But we were teaching twelve. Then hours then and we had as I say about twenty-eight FTEs. We were doing a lot of teaching, and there were a lot of students here.
[5:00]
Ms. Allen: How many of those were tenured faculty? A percentage? Half of the twenty-eight?
Dr. Wilson: We had a fairly large tenure track component. Dennis Dunn and I came the same year. There was one other man, Elston Hill who is no longer with us. But then there were three of us that year. Billy Mac Jones was president. I had known him at Angelo State.
Ms. Allen: Dr. Dunn came, Dr. Hill, there was also a Randolph.
Dr. Wilson: Ralph Randolph was the Dean of Liberal Arts, but he was also in the history department. He was a colonial historian.
Ms. Allen: And then the next year a Dawson and Broussard.
Dr. Wilson: He (Dawson) was the graduate dean. He came here from A&M. He and Randolph were administrators and taught occasionally.
Ms. Allen: I understand Billy Mac Jones was a historian.
Dr. Wilson: That's right, he was. [Author of] Health-Seekers in the Southwest. He was a very competent historian.
Ms. Allen: He is listed in the catalog as faculty; did he actually teach?
Dr. Wilson: No. Everybody in the administration has an academic affiliation for the most part. Jones never did teach. Randolph and Dawson did. Al Brieger taught occasionally, he was registrar, and then he came into the department later on.
Ms. Allen: You're saying then that you don't think the department as far as faculty has grown or students (majors) in the last twenty years.
Dr. Wilson: We finally caught up to that boom of the late sixties. Sure, we've surpassed it, but we do a lot more part time teaching now, and we have classes that are bigger because we've gone to nine hours.
Ms. Allen: That's one area I wanted to focus on, on the hiring practices. In running the time, from 1903 to presently, there is a pattern of people coming in to teach with master’s degrees, and over the years they are working on their doctorate, and then after they reach the doctorate level they are moved up from instructor or assistant professor to an associate [position].
Dr. Wilson: Right. Basically, you have an instructor with a MA, an assistant professor.
Ms. Allen: The emphasis in the last twenty years or so has been on the doctorate in hand.
Dr. Wilson: That's right, and that's university-wide with the exception of specific fields where the doctorate is not considered to be the final degree, terminal degree. There are a few of those. In history we have full time tenured people [who] have got to have a doctorate.
Ms. Allen: Do they come in as assistant or associates?
Dr. Wilson: It depends. We have hired people who have been here temporarily teaching full time who worked on their dissertations and have earned doctorates. They will typically come in as instructors with a degree and get moved up to assistant professor.
Ms. Allen: Have the hiring practices changed?
Dr. Wilson: What do you mean by hiring practices?
Ms. Allen: Well, that you'd be more willing to hire with a masters with the idea that they'd come on as full-time tenured faculty or you'd rather they'd have the doctorate?
Dr. Wilson: Turn that off.
[Interruption]
[10:00]
Ms. Allen: You think the focus of the department has gone more to the growth of liberal arts rather than strictly.
Dr. Wilson: I think there has been more emphasis on, generally speaking, on a liberal arts education as opposed to teacher training which was a very large component of this university when I got here. But over the past twenty years the liberal arts have grown, business has grown big, the number of departments has increased on this campus so that what we are attempting to do, and it's the mission of the university, is to create a liberal arts institution which still has a strong commitment to teacher training, but more of a balance as occurred over the past twenty years.
Ms. Allen: So we're trying to train history majors to be other things than history teachers?
Dr. Wilson: I don't know that we train anybody. I think probably we expose them, and we try to direct them, and we try to educate them, but yes, more and more we're finding that we are attracting straight BA students without the teacher certification emphasis.
Ms. Allen: Is that a change from years ago.
Dr. Wilson: Yes, it is.
Ms. Allen: Do you have feedback on positions, say government, journalism, this type of thing.
Dr. Wilson: Yes, rather than teaching, more and more people are going into other kinds of positions.
Ms. Allen: Who were the strongest members on the faculty when you came?
[15:00]
Dr. Wilson: Emmie [Craddock] of course was always very forceful, and she was a very effective teacher. I don't know about strongest personality. We were a collection, I'd like to think.
Ms. Allen: Any group seems to have a leader, if not elected, but they just seem to be natural leaders.
Dr. Wilson: Ev Swinney has always been here. He's been central to the department, been here since 1957 or ‘58 and was chair for twelve years. I don't know how long Taylor was chair of social sciences but Ev was chair of history for twelve years, and there have been very few chairs who have had that long a tenure, but Ev has always had the best interests of the department at heart and has the corporate memory. He knows how things have been because he was chair for so long, and in that way has been able to exercise leadership. Professor Pohl has been over the years central to our graduate program. I think more than the leadership thing I think it’s more of directing ideas to a consensus. There are people who excel in different areas, but we all seem to come together in effective day to day teaching functions. Whatever it takes to bring us to that realization.
[20:00]
Ms. Allen: Do you feel like the teaching or someone's research or publications are important? Which one would take precedence?
Dr. Wilson: Well that's been changing too since I've gotten here. More and more emphasis has been put on publication. No doubt about that, and that is part of growth. It’s part of this emphasis on a liberal arts institution, and it also reflects the varied flavor and diversity in the faculty. You've had a great turnover in the administration for instance in the last twenty years. You've had a faculty that's grown explosively.
Ms. Allen: You only teach 9 hours now, correct?
Dr. Wilson: People who are tenured or on tenure track.
Ms. Allen: It is my understanding that was done to allow more time for writing or research.
Dr. Wilson: Nationwide, we were behind. We were finding it more and more difficult to hire.
Ms. Allen: Do you think it helps?
Dr. Wilson: Yes. In fact, it would be almost impossible to compete effectively with twelve hours. We lost some good people in the hiring process because of that.
Ms. Allen: Particular incidents that might have had a direct impact on the department? I know you weren't here during the McCrocklin thing.
Dr. Wilson: That had a profound effect. There are some others you might want to speck with about that.
Ms. Allen: What is your perception of it?
Dr. Wilson: It was divisive, campus wide, and I don't care to get into it if you don't mirid. Some of these things are better left unsaid. But it was obvious to me that there were a few scars and university wide that was the case. There was a good deal about that that I don't know. I followed it from afar, but then there are those who were in the heat of the battle who were directly involved who were in the history department. They have talked to me over the years about it, but I really can't quote. But I do know it was very divisive.
Ms. Allen: What about the Viet Nam era?
[25:00]
Dr. Wilson: Within the department there were people of varying persuasions. I don't think at any one time, in my memory at least, that I ever thought anybody in the department let that effect his or her teaching. In fact, I think that one thing that runs throughout professionally. Maybe some others could shed some light, but I never got any idea that it was a major factor in the classroom. There are some people of course who were, rightfully so, very concerned about it but as opposed to some campuses, no. We had a little bit of that, and I think it was probably in the spring before I got here. The San Marcos Ten, or San Marcos Seven, there was some disruption there but during my years there wasn't a great deal among the professors. It was more among the students
Ms. Allen: I noticed that during WWII there was a course added called War Aims. Earlier on, in the late twenties, there was a course on Economics. Now we have a course in women's history that is offered occasionally. What I'm seeing is that some societal problems are being addressed through the history department.
Dr. Wilson: Certainly. The department reflects the times, always has. And of course, you've got to meet student demand. It makes sense and I think it’s better to be flexible. I think it’s a very important part of the department, always has been, to meet the needs of the time. Now for instance, the course on African American history, we had up into the mid-seventies, I guess, then it died, and we let it go because it couldn't make. So then here about three years ago there was a request for it, so we added it, and it’s done quite well ever since. We have tried to meet the needs of various student clientele like schoolteachers for instance. In putting in courses on the Middle East and courses on Asia so we have tried to do the job for various clientele.
Ms. Allen: What about the new Southwest Writers' Collection? I understand that there is a move to make Southwest history or studies a minor. Will the history department be involved in that?
Dr. Wilson: Certainly. We've got three or maybe four courses involved. Yeah. What we're trying to do is to get some more historical stuff over in the collection, historians' manuscripts, as yet it is still a literary collection.
Ms. Allen: To change the subject, you came from Angelo State here? Is that a four-year school now?
[30:00]
Dr. Wilson: It had been a junior college, and quite a good one from the late twenties. Lubbock and San Angelo vied for Texas Tech basically in the late 20s and throughout the
20s, and San Angelo got the junior college. It was a good junior college, but I went there in 1965, September 1965, the first year it was a four-year institution and stayed there five years and came down here.
Ms. Allen: How did you make that decision to come down here?
Dr. Wilson: There were various reasons for it. This one [school] was more mature. It had a great deal more to offer. I must say though coming to San Marcos after being in San Angelo was something of a shock. San Marcos just wasn't much of a town. But even that has changed over the years since we've been here. When we got here there wasn't a decent supermarket in town, you had to go to Austin to shop. But it kind of reflects the whole development of the school. Of course, what you're finding now, among the new faculty, is that more and more are living outside of San Marcos. I don't know, I'd just as soon stay fairly close and be a bit more involved in what's going on, but no, I came down here because it was a good opportunity. I knew it was a good department, and I thought it was a good move, and it has proved to be that.
Ms. Allen: Discuss if you will, the close relationship between SWT and UT and how that has slowly dissolved. We don't have near the ties with them that we once had. Was it because so many of the faculty here attended UT?
Dr. Wilson: That's one thing. And in the old history department at UT there was a strong tie. Webb had been down here one year, I think as registrar, Claude Elliot was here for a long time in the library and also in the history department. He directed a number of theses back in the 30s. Jimmy Taylor had strong ties with Webb and UT. Joe Franz who was chair over there for several years was a good friend too. Bill Pool, Emmie Craddock, Frank Josserand, Jim Pohl, Betty Kissler, Ev Swinney were all UT, Woody Anderson, all from UT. So yes, we had very strong ties with them. We still have some good friends over there, but as the complexion of their department has changed and the complexion of ours has changed, we no longer have that closeness.
Ms. Allen: Do you think the diversity has been good?
[35:00]
Dr. Wilson: No doubt about it. You have to have new ideas. There was a time in the sixties when several Texas schools were on the AAUP censure list. Things have opened up here a good bit. Faculty have made advances, not necessarily monetary advances but in terms .of faculty status and faculty recognition we've made some great strides.
Ms. Allen: One of the English profs told me she teaches here as a full professor; her husband teaches as a full professor at UT. His student load is something like 40 less that hers and her salary is like $7000 less than his. Is that disparity common? UT has more money? That must make it extremely difficult to keep talented people.
Dr. Wilson: It is, it is. It is going to get more and more difficult. Fortunately, we have a president who sees special entry level faculty salaries as a big element. But yes, it’s a problem. So, if you put us behind in what we can offer, salary, and then the twelve-hour load. But I think we are making some headway. Of course, it’s a reflection of the numbers. The tax base of this state is going to have to be rethought. We're going to have to have a state income tax. That's all there is to it. The lottery isn't going to do it, horse racing isn't going to do it. Look at the number of state institutions of higher learning that are in Texas. There are quite a few, in fact there are too many, and so the education dollar is cut up into smaller and smaller chunks, and of course the University of Texas and A&M and some other bigger schools are able to get more dollars.
Ms. Allen: As chair, did you have any specific goals?
Dr. Wilson: Well, going in? Basically, I wanted to try to, at the earliest possibility, reduce the teaching load and of course when the word went out, it was '89 I guess, that if we could do it, let’s do it. I simply thought that we ought to do it, so I began scheduling people for nine hour loads and thus far we've been able to do it. That was one thing. I always thought the teaching load was too heavy. Another thing of course was to try to see to it that we hired the best people we could, because it’s obvious to me that restructuring is going to be one of the biggest challenges. In five or six years the department is going to look considerably different than it does now. Five years ago, six years ago it looked different than it does today, so that's a big challenge. I want to try to do the best job I could with that.
Ms. Allen: We have a large number of faculty that has been here twenty plus years.
Dr. Wilson: That's right. We've got retirements coming up here in ten years, quite a few retirements. So that's a big challenge.
Ms. Allen: It will be interesting to see the new kids on the block so to speak; which ones of these remain and are here twenty years from now. I've made a chart. It's very interesting to see this pattern. It's like stair steps.
Dr. Wilson: I'm sure it is. Well jobs in academe weren't all that easy to come by in the historical profession. They were not that easy. But they are going to open up because nationwide, this retirement is going to take effect. Now is a good time for somebody to enter the graduate school pipeline. We'll see. We don't have a problem selling somebody that we might bring on campus, try to recruit simply because of the department. We don't have any problem at all, everybody likes us, likes the campus, likes the setting . It'll be interesting in light of the retirements that we've got coming up, several retirements and the hiring that we will try to do, what the department will look like.
Ms. Allen: Minorities, women, Hispanics, Blacks. For the most part, if done statistically, are under-represented. That's not unique to this department.
Dr. Wilson: That's right. It changes, it’s kind of cyclical. When I got here there were three women with tenure, now we have one.
Ms. Allen: However, she [Dr. Kissler} was the chair.
Dr. Wilson: That's right, and we have tried to hire females over the past two years. Two years ago, we were turned down on money. In terms of part time, we are very well represented, but in terms in tenured faculty, yes that is difficult. One reason for that is other people can pay better salaries. It’s going to be very difficult to hire a black historian. There's not that many out there, and those that are out there are attracted to higher pay positions. I think we've done very well in recruiting Hispanic faculty.
Ms. Allen: I understand that until very recently the university wouldn't allow husband and wife to both be employed.
Dr. Wilson: That's right, at least in the same department.
Ms. Allen: Will that make it easier perhaps to obtain.
Dr. Wilson: It might. Usually, it’s with a larger university where you are able to do that. These two person deals, so to speak, are difficult for a department this size to absorb. And it’s not going to be common for us to fit in two people. I mean it’s going to be rare; it’s going to be exceptional that we would have two people, man and wife, who emerge at the top list in two different job searches. So, I mean there is a good deal of that, but I just don't know if we'll ever get the two. We have had in the past man and wife both in academia, but usually in different fields.
Ms. Allen: Like Drs. Brunson.
Dr. Wilson: That's right, the fields are different. Or typically one will teach here, and one will teach at a different school.
Ms. Allen: But there is no longer a school-wide ban on both working?
Dr. Wilson: So long as one is not an administrator. You can't have one of the pair being under the other.
Ms. Allen: Other than money, what does the history department most need?
Dr. Wilson: Pretty soon, we're going to need some offices. We're going to have to have a little bit of a physical rearrangement around here which might come when campus gets under way. See we had first call on Flowers. Well Flowers next year is going to be refurbished over there so we'll be over in Science 226. I have an idea that we won't be quite as self-contained as we have been in the past. It might be that more and more of our classes will have to be outside Taylor/Murphy which is predictable. I think what it looks like we're going to need is a few more larger class rooms and some offices.
Ms. Allen: I envision some graders being kicked out.
Dr. Wilson: Well, you know, they've had it pretty soft, definitely. If you look at other departments and if you look at our department before we came over here, when we were still over at Evans. You simply throw a bunch of desks in a room and that's it. But yes, I can envision the time when we are going to have to use those offices for faculty members.
Ms. Allen: The Taylor-Murphy Building, I think, is the prettiest and nicest and cleanest building on campus. What to you contribute that to?
Dr. Wilson: I think it was already, in terms of its architecture and its surface appearance, it was always one of the most attractive buildings on campus. And I think that because we were able to, as a renovation committee, we were able to meet with the architects regularly. I think we got 90% of what we wanted. That is an incredible percentage given cross campus experience. But I think it was the fact that we were able to contribute to the renovation, and we knew what we wanted, and we able to spell it out very clearly. So, we did very well.
Ms. Allen: How do you envision the new technology in the study of history? Computers?
Dr. Wilson: Well, it has already made its weight felt. I can see that more and more historians are going to use for instance these various informational networks that exist. Especially as it has to do with research and libraries, and I think it’s very good. To some extent it might make a gathering of research information easier. It depends on your field and the period, that kind of thing. Of course, there will always be the need for hard copy in research libraries. The whole thing about historical research is you usually have to travel. It’s not as if you've got a lab, it’s not as though you've got government reports that you rely on. Historians usually have to travel to find specific things, items that exist nowhere else. Microfilm has helped a great deal; interlibrary loan has helped. But I think travel monies for academic research is also one of our needs, and I think that the faculty here has been very effective in securing those kinds of travel allowances, either through the university or outside funding. But that's always a problem in historical research, travel.
Ms. Allen: Do you have any interesting stories you'd like to relate for posterity?
[40:00]
Dr. Wilson: I could tell some. They usually involve people, and I'm hesitant to do that. I think probably I'd have to think about it. There are some very interesting things that happen day to day. There are some experiences that have come with this job, but the juiciest ones I'd just as soon not get into it. I'd have to think a while before I could share. If I think of something. We've had some interesting dealings with various administrators around here and of course there is always the interaction around here between faculty members. Some of those have been classic. I'd have to think awhile before I'd get into that though. There are a number of those. Once you open the door to that one, they come flooding through.
Ms. Allen: If not with me, you should put them down. One day, they'll be priceless.
[45:00]
Dr. Wilson: They might be, yeah. I'd have to think a while about it. There are things that happen day to day that are very humorous of course. I guess maybe one thing that you might put down is that back in [19]82/83 Dr. Kissler was the Acting Dean of Liberal Arts, and I was the acting chair, and we had just moved in here, that summer of ‘82. In fact I said 'thanks a lot Betty', I get to do the move over here, and moving this mob was very interesting. She had been the chair for two years; she became the chair in 1980. She had of course her own style, and one was that she hired Carolyn, and the two of them are very interested in acknowledging holidays and bringing goodies to the office. I remember that it was in that fall of [19]82 and we were downstairs, where that room 110 is, that was where the office was. There was a work room behind it. We had a girl that was working for us that went on to the University of Illinois. Anyway, Dr. Kissler had always brought all these goodies, and she was the one that had a candy jar that was always full out there. I substitute donuts on Friday mornings for that. Anyway, I came in. It was October 31st and Carolyn and this girl, Diane Smith, had these long faces. I couldn't stand it past mid-morning and I said "what the deuce is going on around here? What are you people so glum about?'' Well Dr. Kissler had always brought Halloween cookies you see, and goodies and I had forgotten. So they never let me live that one down. Those kinds of things happened all the time. Carolyn's got a number of those things. Some are humorous, at the time though they weren't too humorous. There are other things that you have to reflect on to see the humor. The forgetful nature of history professors is very interesting. There are a million of those that I can recall.
Ms. Allen: The absent-minded professor?
Dr. Wilson: Yes, at least, absent minded. We've had some very interesting personalities around here. But once again I won't get into too much of that.
Ms. Allen: I think the individual personalities and how they mesh is what has collectively made this department what it is.
Dr. Wilson: I think you can say that. Any effective unit. But given the nature of history, and it’s bound to be diverse. Now which of course is a big change over the makeup of the department say in 1960. Yeah, I think you're right.
Ms. Allen: If you think of any good stories you'd like to share with me.
Dr. Wilson: You should talk to some others. They could probably tell some good ones on me. few. I've been involved in a
Ms. Allen: What takes more of your time as chairman?
Dr. Wilson: Day to day paperwork and these onerous things like registration, hiring, budgeting matters.
Ms. Allen: More so than dealing with your faculty?
Dr. Wilson: Yes, unfortunately. Unless there's a problem, my philosophy is just stay out of their way and let them go. If you hire good people, turn them loose. But it’s this stuff and it reflects the size and growth of the university, much of the stuff that comes into the office and I've always believed that there is too many people over on the administrative side and over on the sports side who don't understand the workings of an academic department. We've had to grovel and plead with them for going on four years for a secretary. We finally got a part time secretary. So that's going to make a big difference. I hope it does. I hope that leads into a full-time secretary in not too many years because we certainly deserve it by any criteria. I think probably staff support would be one of the needs.
Ms. Allen: Any other observations? You have to envision someone trying to discover changes from now and when they pick this up a hundred years from now.
Dr. Wilson: You know the Tom Brewer thesis? Thomas Brewer on the old department of the University of Texas, you might pick that up. There might be one interesting – his method and how he handles it. In fact, I think there was an article in the Southwestern Historical Quarterly that was taken from that thesis.
Ms. Allen: It’s a thesis on the UT History Department?
Dr. Wilson: Yes. You could call that up on the FAX terminal.
----Interrupted. End interview.----