Oral History Transcript - Harriet and John McCrocklin - January 8, 2008
Interview with Harriet and John McCrocklin
Interviewer: Barbara Thibodeaux
Date of Interview: January 8, 2008
Location: Wimberley, Texas
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Interviewees: Harriet McCrocklin – The widow of Texas State University’s fourth president, James H. McCrocklin, Mrs. McCrocklin lives in Wimberley where her late husband founded a successful real estate business. Mr. McCrocklin also served as Under Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare during the Johnson administration.
John McCrocklin – The son of Mr. and Mrs. James McCrocklin, John is a 1974 management and marketing graduate who is president of McCrocklin and Associates.
BARBARA THIBODEAUX: This recording is part of the LBJ Centennial Celebration Oral History Project sponsored by Texas State University. Today is January 8, 2008. My name is Barbara Thibodeaux. I am interviewing Mrs. Harriet McCrocklin, wife of James McCrocklin, in Wimberley, Texas.
Mrs. McCrocklin, even though you have agreed to the terms and conditions of the release pertaining to this interview in writing, will you also verbally acknowledge your acceptance with a yes or a no?
MRS. M: Yes.
THIBODEAUX: Okay. Thank you very much.
All right, let’s begin. Maybe you can just talk a little bit about you and Jim. How did you meet Jim?
MRS. M: How did I meet Jim?
THIBODEAUX: Um hmm.
MRS. M: We were in school together at the university—well, we were in high school together and the University of Texas.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, okay. So you grew up in the same town. I saw two different places of birth for Jim. Can you tell me which is the correct one?
JOHN M: Kendalia.
THIBODEAUX: Okay. I heard Kendalia and Boerne. But they’re right there together, aren’t they?
MRS. M: Yeah, they’re close together.
THIBODEAUX: So is that where you went to high school?
MRS. M: No. They had moved to Austin. I grew up in Austin.
THIBODEAUX: Okay.
JOHN M: The family had a ranch until the Depression, and then about 1933 they moved to Austin.
THIBODEAUX: Okay. And when were you married?
MRS. M: Nineteen forty-six.
THIBODEAUX: To the best of your knowledge, did Mr. McCrocklin—I’m sorry I keep referring to him as Mr. McCrocklin—did Jim meet Lyndon Johnson before you were married or after? Do you know? Before 1946?
JOHN M: The families—because they were ranching families back in the ‘20s and ‘30s—the familiarity of the Johnson family was known, and my dad was familiar with the Johnsons at that time. But part of the rekindling effect took place in the late ‘60s—well, late ‘50s, early ‘60s when my father ran the democratic campaigns for Governor Connally and President Johnson, I mean—but then at the time Kennedy was running against Nixon. So he was kind of one of the campaign coordinators for South Texas for them. And then it was about 1963 he was appointed—or early ’64 appointed to Southwest Texas State—Texas State—as president by J. C. Kellam, who President Johnson asked to have dad appointed.
THIBODEAUX: So they met politically but they became friends—closer friends?
JOHN M: Well, they knew each other before that, but he renewed those, you know, acquaintances and became, I guess, a closer friendship.
THIBODEAUX: Do you know what his impressions or feelings about Lyndon Johnson were in those earlier years, let’s say, up through 1964?
JOHN M: Do you want me to answer that?
MRS. M: Yeah. Go ahead. You know more than I do.
JOHN M: I think a lot of it had to do with my dad was very big on integration because he helped integrate Kingsville and ran a split ticket with the Hispanic population to gain control from the Kleberg family, who later became very close friends in 1958, to win the mayoral campaign in Kingsville. And as that I think he was very sensitive to the fact that integration was a huge issue, and he always understood Lyndon’s position on that. The president was—that was probably his pet peeve as far as legislation and higher education were concerned. I mean, that consumed him. And it was very unfortunate that the president didn’t live longer after his retirement because he had so many things that he planned to do.
But I spent six hours with him one day at the ranch on Labor Day in 1968, and he talked about what he wanted to do in retirement. And I got to ask questions about the Vietnam War and what he thought that he accomplished, and his biggest accomplishment in his mind that he told me was the integration of the country because it did so much to move us forward out the Dark Ages, as he referred to it, into a new dawn. That and higher education were the two biggest things that he stood for. And my dad was very strong on both those.
THIBODEAUX: With your conversation with Mr. Johnson, what were his plans for after retirement?
JOHN M: He wanted to do a lot to continue the process of integration. He realized that it was a very precarious situation where—you know, with Martin Luther King having been assassinated and the turmoil in the country and all that had gone on in Los Angeles and the Watts riots and whatever, he realized that even though legislation had been passed, there had to be a bridge to carry it forward into the future. And that’s one of the things that I think he felt so strongly about, that he wanted to do—he was going to spend part of the time at the ranch up at Stonewall and then part of it there at the LBJ Library.
He also—the thing that pained him very, very deeply was the Vietnam War because a lot of people don’t realize that I think a part of him died with every young man that passed away during that war. He was mad that some of his advisors had not given him better information about the war, I would say. That there was too much politics involved and he couldn’t get straight answers on some of the issues that I think he really felt like almost betrayed that some of the stuff that took place.
THIBODEAUX: Do you think he ever considered having the presidential library at Texas State?
JOHN M: To my knowledge, he didn’t.
THIBODEAUX: Well, I’m going to back up a little bit then. So what was your impression of Mr. Johnson? Did you socialize with his family?
MRS. M: Not a great deal. To a certain extent.
JOHN M: Y’all spent a couple of times at the White House with them in the Lincoln bedroom.
MRS. M: Yeah, we stayed up there several times. I had something I was going to say and then I can’t remember what it was.
JOHN M: I’m sorry.
MRS. M: I don’t know. Maybe I’ll think of it in a minute.
THIBODEAUX: Well, that’s fine. Do you remember any of those visits to the White House?
MRS. M: Oh yes.
THIBODEAUX: Why don’t you just describe one of those visits?
MRS. M: Oh, I can’t. I don’t remember them that well.
JOHN M: A couple of the times that they were up there when Dad and Mom went to Washington, it was pretty difficult times because that was back in ’68 when there was a curfew of nine o’clock in the capitol, I mean, based on, you know, racial issues and everything else that was going on up there. Resurrection City was on the grounds of the Washington Monument around the reflection ponds and so it was not safe to walk the streets or whatever. Towards the end of Dad’s term at HEW, he’d moved out to the Presidential Gardens over in Arlington or Alexandria—Arlington—
MRS. M: Wherever they are.
JOHN M: —and anyway, the president got kind of miffed and sent a car to pick them up, and they spent the last night or two rather than in the hotel y’all spent it with them in the White House, didn’t you?
MRS. M: I guess. I don’t remember, John.
JOHN M: But from what Mother has told me and what my dad recounted to me in conversations, the president and Lady Bird were just like average everyday people, checking on Luci or Lynda when they were coming in from dates, hollering down the hall to see if they were back in the White House and so on and so forth. So he considered him just like a normal parent, normal person, very down-to-earth, and a very non-pretentious individual.
THIBODEAUX: They certainly came from a similar background too. I’m sure that helped. In fact, one thing about their backgrounds, do you think they shared the same or a very similar educational philosophy?
JOHN M: Um hmm.
THIBODEAUX: Do you think that Jim may have influenced President Johnson in any way or vice versa?
JOHN M: I don’t know—I don’t think a lot of people influenced the president at all. The president made his mind up on what he wanted done and basically aligned or drawn on people into backing what he needed to have done. Because one of the conversations, for instance, that I had with the president was I asked him how he could get the civil rights legislation passed in 1964 after Kennedy’s death when Kennedy hadn’t been able to accomplish it. He said, “A few trips up and down the Potomac with Senator Dirksen and a few other people,” persuading them strongly to his belief. And so when he made his mind up on something, he was very strong willed and knew what he wanted to accomplish and knew how he was going to go about it. He was a very, very persuasive individual.
As far as the education was concerned, I think, because both President Johnson and my father grew up in the rural communities, where there were kind of one-room schools and whatever, I think the persona of the local Texian and ranching genre—if you want to refer to it as that—had tremendous impact because people took faith and stock both in education to try to advance yourself but also in believing that if you gave a person your word you stood behind it. I think those probably shaped President Johnson and my father both dramatically. But times are different in today’s world.
THIBODEAUX: Was President Johnson involved in any local politics in Kingsville or Kleberg County?
JOHN M: No. Not to my knowledge. He helped Governor Connally a lot with, I think, making a few calls with some of the educational programs that Governor Connally was pushing, as I recall. He was very, very big on education. In fact, it was 1965, I think, the higher educational bill was signed there at Texas State at Strand Coliseum that’s now the music building right there at LBJ and Sessom. I remember that. We’ve still got the film of that. I mean, y’all are welcome to use it, that old film.
THIBODEAUX: Oh, that would be fabulous.
JOHN M: Okay. I don’t know whether there’s one at the university or not.
MRS. M: I don’t know.
THIBODEAUX: And you know, I think if there is I don’t know where it is. We went through the university archives and did not find a lot there, and I talked to, I think, Pat Murdock, who was in charge of the news service, and he—
JOHN M: Well, we’ve tried to give the university—we’ve tried to give them all our dad’s papers from Washington. We’ve tried to give them the film. We’ve tried to give them the slides from HEW. We’ve tried to give them a lot of stuff. And the follow-up or lack of follow-up is like nobody cared.
THIBODEAUX: And they do, I guess, depending on who was working at the time. Is it all right if maybe I follow up on that?
JOHN M: Yeah.
THIBODEAUX: And have someone contact you.
JOHN M: I don’t know whether that tape is any good anymore. It’s been down in the lower garage. We’ve had water go through there a couple of times, and so I don’t know. You’ll have to go through the boxes.
THIBODEAUX: I’ll see if I can maybe facilitate that a little bit. That would be fabulous because I was disappointed that some things were missing. Some things that were supposed to have been there I don’t think were in the box.
JOHN M: Well, I’ll give you the film before you leave, but I can’t tell you whether the film’s any better. We would like to have the film back when you’re through with it. You’re welcome to make a copy or do whatever transposition that you’d like to do.
THIBODEAUX: That would be a wonderful thing.
Well, speaking about President Johnson and on campus, I know his inauguration speech at Jim’s inauguration as president of Southwest Texas—I think College at that time—State College talked about starting the War on Poverty in San Marcos.
JOHN M: Um hmm.
THIBODEAUX: Did it have a great deal to do with Jim, his relationship with Jim?
JOHN M: I think a lot of that had to do with—the reason he kicked it off in San Marcos was because more of his relationship with Jake Pickle, and because Pickle took his Tenth Congressional seat, which had been Johnson’s seat originally, you know, as they migrated the boundary lines. And then because being here in San Marcos he asked Dad to help with that as well to kick it off. And they had a lot of good people—and that’s something that I overlooked because that was another one of his big pet peeves and something that he really wanted to do. That was one of the things he mentioned at the ranch is he wanted to raise the earning capacity of all Americans to eliminate poverty. But I think it was a combination of things. I think being his old district, being familiar with it, being familiar with both my dad and being especially familiar with Congressman Pickle because he counted on Jack for a lot of stuff. And so I think that was probably the emphasis for kicking it off in San Marcos.
THIBODEAUX: Do you have any personal memories of when President Johnson signed the Higher Education Act at the university?
JOHN M: I just remember him signing it. We’ve got the—he signed with multiple pens, and somewhere I’ve got the first pen that he used to sign the higher education bill here at the house, I think. He used to have the—oh, they weren’t ballpoint, they were more felt-tipped pens that he would sign several documents and he would pass the pens out. And the pens would say, “This was used in the signing of the higher education bill,” or this bill or that bill, and that was unusual because a lot of Johnson’s signatures were done with autopens, so it was really unusual to have an actual pen from one of the documents that had been signed. But other than the date that it was done—
The president—I remember he used to call Dad at the office and frequently was on the phone himself and used to startle the secretaries because they were used to having somebody from the White House screen the call or make sure that somebody was available. But there were times where he would call the house or call Dad at the office and just be on the phone personally. I remember that because I caught one, one time at the house.
MRS. M: (laughs) You remember more than I do. Of course, I don’t remember a lot of that, but that’s all right.
JOHN M: One of the other things that—you know, going back to the poverty and everything else, President Johnson—and I don’t want to be negative when I say this—but everybody was worried that there was a rift between the Kennedy family and the Johnsons to a degree from a political standpoint. But there were a lot of political appointees that Kennedy had made that didn’t harbor the same vision that President Johnson did.
One of the things that kind of related to the poverty area had to do with UNESCO. There are two things I know that President Johnson pushed my father on. One was becoming the undersecretary at HEW, and President Johnson had a way of he didn’t like to be told no, so he’d try to feel people out ahead of time to find out whether—what the answer was going to be before he would ask you. I remember the conversation that took place when President Johnson asked Dad to come serve in Washington at HEW because Wilbur Cohen was the secretary and Wilbur was having some trouble. He’d come up through the ranks as a government grade employee and been appointed as the secretary of HEW, but he was having trouble implementing some of the stuff. And so President Johnson wanted to give him some assistance there and brought my dad up. But the conversation went something like, President Johnson said to him, “Jim, if a friend was to ask you whether you wanted to go to Washington or not, what would your answer be?” And rather than just give him an answer, he said, “Well, I hope the friend wouldn’t ask the friend to go to Washington because the friend doesn’t want to go to Washington.” They beat around the bush for about a half an hour and finally he says, “Damn it, I want a straight answer. Will you or won’t you?” and he said, “I will go if you want me to go, but I don’t want to go.” He said, “I don’t want anybody that wants to go.” (H McCrocklin laughs) “I want those people that need to go,” and that was kind of the way he got appointed to HEW.
From there he went on to become appointed with ambassador rank at UNESCO. But got over there and the appointee that was there was kind of creating a lot of undermining to President Johnson’s desired policies at UNESCO. So my dad stepped in and called the president and told him that things weren’t going as he had requested that they go. So President Johnson got on the phone very quickly—I mean, within half an hour—and recalled the ambassador and wanted to appoint my dad as the ambassador. He said, “No. You’ve got a better person right here in Katie Louchheim,” and that’s when Katie was appointed, I think, the first woman ambassador in the cabinet—or the—wasn’t she one of the first women that was appointed as an ambassador?
MRS. M: I don’t remember, John. I just don’t.
JOHN M: But I believe Katie was one of the first women that had ever—if not the first that had been appointed to the rank of ambassador. And Katie was a very, very loyal Johnson appointee. So that was another big thing at UNESCO that was poverty. So when you look at education and the issue of poverty and not only here in the United States but worldwide and trying to raise the level of standards, he was right on the forefront. Integration, I mean, President Johnson reshaped the world, make no mistake about it, because if he had not had such a strong will and strong desire to pass integration, I’d hate to think where we’d be today. I don’t think anybody else could’ve gotten it done.
THIBODEAUX: Yeah. I think you’re correct in that assessment. Let’s see.
Was Jim involved actively in any of President Johnson’s campaigns even before he became president?
JOHN M: Only I think indirectly because when President Johnson was appointed—or took charge after President Kennedy’s death—I mean, he worked on some of the campaigns for the president in South Texas before he became president. And after he became president, he was already at Texas State and there wasn’t really any time for him to do that because of all the other things that he was doing for the president and Governor Connally at the time.
THIBODEAUX: I know with Mr. [Robert] Hardesty that there was always that controversy that he was accused of being political because he was friends with Johnson and with some big democrats. I think this just had to do with the Democratic Party. Did Jim come under any of those accusations too of being political at that time?
JOHN M: The only thing that I remember is—the only time that my dad ever called the president to do something was if it benefited a need locally. I mean, nothing to do with him personally, but if there was something that needed to be done where he reached a stalemate and needed somebody to give them a push, he would rely on that. But in terms of ever using the political clout, the only time that I know that he did it was when he had the ambassador call from Paris to UNESCO, and the guy that had been recalled said to him, “I guess I should’ve gotten to know you better.” He said, “That’s not the point. The point is that you were supposed to represent the president’s position and you failed to do so.” So that’s—I don’t think he ever abused the power or ever tried to abuse it because there would’ve been a definite reaction from President Johnson. Today too many people abuse power like that and get caught in the press. Back then, you just did what the president wanted or you weren’t there. You were supposed to be a loyal individual to the president and his policies or you didn’t belong. That was the goal. So the only time that anybody—Bob Hardesty or any of the other people that I know—ever did anything was to push the president’s agenda forward.
THIBODEAUX: I think I’m becoming just like you. I just had a question on my mind and it just left me. Oh, now I remember now. There is—Jim has been given a lot of credit for healing a rift between Lyndon Johnson and the university because President [John G.] Flowers before him would not let President Johnson end his 1960 campaign at the university. I’ve read that, but I haven’t read any details about it. Do you know what that story is?
JOHN M: No. No.
MRS. M: Miss what’s-her-name that was his secretary— (laughs)
JOHN M: Clara.
THIBODEAUX: Clara?
JOHN M: Yeah, Clara Taylor.
THIBODEAUX: Clara Taylor.
JOHN M: She’s deceased but she knew a lot of—
MRS. M: Yes. She used to live next-door to us. (laughs) In fact—what was his name that preceded Daddy as president?
JOHN M: Flowers. Dr. Flowers.
MRS. M: She was Dr. Flowers’ secretary, and she told us about this property here next to her because it was for sale, and we bought it because it was for sale and we wanted to be out—
JOHN M: Have a place—
MRS. M: —away from the city. (laughs) And she had her own ideas of what should be done and shouldn’t be done.
THIBODEAUX: She would’ve been an interesting interview.
MRS. M: She would’ve been. She would’ve been. And she had this friend that she lived with, Hazel Green, and they lived in this little house right next-door to us over here. They were a pair if ever there was a pair. (laughs)
THIBODEAUX: Did she work for your husband also at the university?
MRS. M: Um hmm.
JOHN M: Yes. She worked for about two or three years before she retired, didn’t she?
MRS. M: Yeah. (laughs) Clara Taylor.
THIBODEAUX: I’ll see if there’s anything left. Did Jim have any influence over President Johnson returning to Texas State to sign the Higher Education Act?
JOHN M: I think at that point President Johnson just wanted to promote the university. I guess—I didn’t realize there’d been a rift, but he was always calling trying to do things in San Marcos, again, because it was Congressman Pickle’s district and because it was the university. I think that was very big to him to try to help.
One of the things I do recall was when they did the land swap for the federal fish hatchery. The president wanted the administration building on the federal fish hatchery property, and he envisioned something similar to the speech and drama building. Not that he’d envisioned putting it in the middle of a lot of ponds or whatever that was down there, but that was a very big thing to him that they were able to work out a trade for part of the area out there that used to be part of the college farm, out there at McCarty and 35. So there was a swap that went on to grant the federal fish hatchery the property that the university had between McCarty and Hunter Road and 35 in exchange for the acreage down there were the Kellam Building and the speech and drama building are. So he was very, very heavily involved in that I promise you.
THIBODEAUX: Was that something that your father also was anxious to have—
JOHN M: I think there were several strong discussions about that, yes.
THIBODEAUX: Did the two men continue their relationship after they both retired from public service?
JOHN M: Um hmm. The president didn’t live long after he passed away, but Lady Bird called us as a family and invited us to—well, we’re lifetime members of the LBJ Library, and so we got invited to a lot of the black-tie dinners and whatever else was over there. I guess it was four or five years after the president had passed away, and we helped John Barn and LBJ Company sell part of the ranch that adjoined the national park. Then Lady Bird invited us up to have breakfast on the Pedernales—I guess at that time that was part of the national park because I remember the tour buses coming by and Lady Bird stopping and going out there to—
MRS. M: Greet them.
JOHN M: —greet everybody as they came by. I mean, that was her.
THIBODEAUX: Well, I don’t have any other official questions. Is there anything that you would like to add, something that comes to mind?
JOHN M: I just wish my dad was still alive because he could—he said he would never give an interview until a certain number of funerals had transpired. (All laugh)
THIBODEAUX: I know. I talked to someone yesterday. He said he’s been holding on to a story for forty years, and he was finally going to spill the beans. (Mrs. McCrocklin laughs) So I’m excited about that.
JOHN M: Yeah.
THIBODEAUX: So I’m sure he had a lot of stories.
MRS. M: Who is that?
THIBODEAUX: It’s Mr. [Al] Lowman. I think he’s a historian from Texas Institute of Cultures, retired.
JOHN M: Al Lowman.
THIBODEAUX: Um hmm. I’m looking forward to interviewing him and hopefully, we’ll pick up a few stories that just haven’t been told before, or at least some different perspectives.
JOHN M: Well, the perspective back then that most people today don’t realize is how much unrest and turmoil. I remember Resurrection City, and I remember going to the capitol when Ralph Abernathy was beaten by the capitol police and had blood coming down his face and drug out of one of the committee rooms that he was trying to break into to disrupt the meeting, and the SDS and the Weathermen, all the problems that they created on college campuses. I mean, it just—back in the ‘60s, it’s hard to believe how far we’ve come as a country in the last fifty years—forty plus years. But you look back at all those things that took place and transpired. And to me President Johnson was my hero because if somebody, like I said, had not stepped to the plate, this country would’ve been upside down and democracy wouldn’t have meant much of anything because he truly believed every person had equal rights and equal protection under the law. Even after he passed the legislation, he knew that was paper and it was going to take a lot of willpower to change people’s attitudes and behavior. I think that’s the reason that we survived as well as we have because if you look at Greece and history about democracy, typically the more freedoms we have, the more we destroy the democracy. But in our case, I think President Johnson put us on a very strong foundation for the future. But there are too many people today at Texas State and other universities that don’t have a clue. I know my kids when I tell them about the SDS and the Weatherman or that we had thirteen threatening phone calls a week serious enough that the lights had to stay on around the house with security circling the house every night.
The night that they burned the old Strutters Gym where the aquatic center is, I was at a basketball game and came up from Strand, which, again, used to be down at Sessom at LBJ and came up over the hill to—what—I guess, it’s the home ec[onomics] building now that used to be the—
MRS. M: I have no idea, John.
JOHN M: —the president’s house right below Old Main, and I think is part of the home economics department now—but came up and looked right across the street and saw these people running out there and then all of a sudden there was an explosion in the Strutters Gym. And so those were very, very challenging times for America to have lived through those periods and all that took place. It’s just different.
THIBODEAUX: It was an incredible time. I do remember that. Well, thank you very much.
JOHN M: Um hmm. Let me go get that film for you.
THIBODEAUX: Okay. And I just wanted to add that joining us in this interview was Mr. John McCrocklin, a son of James McCrocklin.
(End of interview)