Oral History Transcript - Ben Green - May 3, 1974

Interview with Ben Green

Interviewer: Nancy Norman and Stan Siler

Transcriber: Cathy Sappington

Editor: Kristine Toma

Date of Interview: May 3, 1974

 

Summary: Ben Green talks about his life in and around the San Marcos, Texas area in the early 1900s. A self-described handy man, pain mover and all-around hard worker, Green’s stories shine a light on the daily lives of Black and other minority people around the San Marcos.  He talks about working for Mr. A.B. Rogers for many years – beginning when he was a small boy to growing up and becoming the hearse driver for Rogers’ undertaker business.  He also talks about working for the San Marcos Baptist Academy and being known throughout the area for his healing abilities.

Transcription note: This recording is of poor quality, with background noise and tape distortion.  Gaps in the transcript denoted by dashes [----] where the transcriber was unable to decipher what was being said.

 

[Start tape 1A, 00:00]

Stan Siler: Today is May the third, 1974. We are interviewing Mr. Ben Green. The interviewers are Nancy Norman and Stan Siler.

Nancy Norman: Can you tell us anything about your mother and father?

Ben Green: About my family?

Norman: Mm-hmm

Green: Well, my first wife, she had passed. Christmas before last, she’s been dead about a year. But my second wife, she’s been dead I think 12 or 14 years. She passed a good while ago. After the recession.

Norman: What about your parents?

Green: My father and mother have both been dead a long time. Papa died in (19)43, and my mama died when I was very small. My two sisters is dead, and my brother—there’s four of us. Died  ---- And my oldest sister --- she died in Tucson, Arizona. Then my other baby sister died here in San Antonio. She died when flu was raging, and you didn’t fool ---- nobody when you got that flu --- She got up and washed her head, but it wasn’t long before she passed ---- Let’s see, I don’t know…

Norman: What kind of work did you father do?

Green: He was a priest, minister.

Norman: A minister?

Green: Yeah.

Norman: Was he from Hays County too originally?

Green: No, he was born round about Hallettsville, way down in there. That’s where his people was. He pastored in Georgetown, he pastored in ---- in different places, and moved around in there, you know.

Stan Siler: Was he a Baptist Preacher?

Green: No, Methodist. He was Methodist. He preached for them plumb ‘til he went blind. He was blind when he passed. That stick laying out there on that table was his eyes. That’s what he got around with. He had that and a little dog. Somebody gave it to him and said she was pretty smart. Said she’d be a big help to your pop, so I said well I’d take her. Said pop I can’t be around the house all the time, and sure enough she was pretty smart. When he’d get lost in the house, she’d come out there where I was workin’ in the yard-- I was on a ranch workin’ for some people, and bark. And I’d say what’s the matter Spotty? Something going on? Is Papa lost in the house? WOOF WOOF. Alright, I’d go see, and sure enough he’d be lost. And if she come across a snake, she just wouldn’t let him go. She’d push herself right against his legs and bark. Pop would say what’s the matter? Something down there I can’t pass? Snake or something? WOOF WOOF. So, I’d be workin’ out there and I’d have to go and get them. They give me an hour if ever, all day long I would check him. So, I’d go on up there and see what’s what … sometimes there would be a snake, and she would be laying there against his legs, she wouldn’t let him pass. So, I would kill the snake. If she saw him on the porch going wrong when he was hitting the steps, she just pushed against him and drag along. He’d say what’s the matter Spotty am I at the steps? Am I on a high place? And she’d bark. So, he’d feel her down there, and he had his stick there as his eyes, and he’d say “Oh! She wouldn’t let me go because there wasn’t no step there.” She’d say WOOF WOOF. She’s smart.

Norman: She was a smart dog.

Green: Oh yes, she’d take care of him. And after he passed in (19)43, I had. He’d done told me what to do as his son. He said Son, as long as you live, if you live the longest, don’t let the buzzards eat Spotty. She’s been too much help to me. So, I promised to take care of her. So, he says she’s smart and she saw it coming. He passed and I got his stick and did it over the floor, you know. She’d missed him for three or four days. She broke in the screen to come in the house lookin’ for him. I said oh well. She jumped up in the bed and trailed the bed two or three times, up and down you know. Up and down trying to find him where he slept. I was watching her. I said well Spotty, I made Pop a promise, and I’m not going to be able to keep that promise if you’re going to act like that. Cause you’re making me feel sad too, ‘cause I know what you’re looking for. But he’s gone and he ain’t coming back. And she kept looking at me and she jumped up in bed and trailed it again. I said you might as well come down he ain’t here. So, she jumped down-- she smart, she understood just like a person. So well-- I gave her to a friend of mine, I said you take good care of her, you promise me to never let nothing happen to her. He said I promise to never let nothing happen to her Ben, because she’s been a faithful little dog. So, I said the only reason I’m giving her to you is to keep the sadness off of me. She keeps looking for Papa, and Papa ain’t here. But she wants him, she’s looking for him. So, I got that stick and hit it on the floor two or three times, and she broke in the screen. Thought that was Papa coming out of his room, so I got rid of her. I couldn’t keep her.

Norman: Do you remember your mother?

Green: Oh yeah, I was small. But I remember her.

Norman: Could you tell us about her too?

Green: Well, the last time she was with us, we was all small. But the girls was older and bigger than me and my brother. I was the oldest boy and he was the baby. And that my oldest sister, you see her hanging on that wall there. She sent us half to the debt. Before the talking pictures came out, she worked in Tucson, Arizona. She worked between the reels. And while they was reeling up, she be entertaining the crows.  So when they got ready to put the pictures back on the screen, well of course she had gone back to where they couldn’t see her. So that’s what her job was out there. So she sent us half the debt. If she could send another mark she would.

Norman: Well, what was her name?

Green: Kathleen(?). And my baby sister she was named Debbie(?), and my brother was Charlie and my name was Ben. But I was the oldest boy and he was the baby. Wasn’t too good, but to be older was nice. Kathy was oldest, Debbie was next to her, then I was next to Debbie, then Charlie was next to me. Two years difference in all our ages.

Norman: What was your mother’s name?

Green: Roxy.

Norman: Roxy?

Green: Yeah, Roxy Green.

Norman: Did she get ill, is that why—

Green: Yeah, she told us without-- with all that she had a job picking cotton. She told us, you children pick up, because this is the last time I’m going to come out in the fall picking cotton with you. We told her Mama you don’t say that. She said no, it’s true. I won’t ride with y’all no more, so y’all pick all you can, you children. As much as you can. I says—I was the oldest and I spoke up, I said well, if that’s the way it is, that’s just the way it have to be. Well, sure enough,  and we come on in and she’d taken sick. Sho’ enough, that fall—'cause you know cotton time is in the fall. Cotton time come again, and she was dead. She kicked-- she was warned of her death, I guess. She said that, and that’s the way it happened.

Norman: How old were you when she died?

Green: Oh, I was about—can’t seem to remember all of that, but I must’ve been about seven or eight. My brother was two years under me, so he was about six, I think, five or six. And the girls were older than us, but I don’t remember all of that. And I went to work for Mr. [A.B.] Rogers when I was about nine or ten years old. A school boy—well I was—after four o’clock, after school, I would go on up there and finish the day with him taking care of his horses, his yard, that’s one thing—just anything a school boy-- That’s the thing about it, Mr. Rogers and Mrs. Rogers practically raised me. I was with them more than I was with Papa and Mama. And so, she had a boy named Paul, was one boy and --- And I’d taken care of them too. Seein’ after them. And Mrs. Rogers, she always told people she had two boys, one black boy and one white one. (Laughs)

Norman: She thought a lot of you.

Green: Oh, yes, she did. They raised me. So, I’d wake up more with her and Mr. Rogers more than I did with Papa and Mama. I’d go up there with them, and I’d stay a week or two weeks, and he’d give me the keys to the house. And I was the boss of the house, and the boss of the children too. Put them to bed and see to them. If they got in a fight with somebody, I got in there and separated them, and sometimes that did happen. And so, well—

Norman: What town was this in?

Green: Right here in San Marcos.

Norman: Right here?

Green: That’s where I was raised at.

Norman: So you’ve just lived here all your life then, haven’t you?

Green: Oh, all my life. Right here in San Marcos, I can take you to the place, well I guess it’s all built up with buildings on it now, but I know where the spot is where I was born.

Norman: You must have lots of friends here.

Green: Oh, yes, when I went to the hospital here, when I got sick and my stepson got me from here. But when I got there, news got out that I’d gone to the hospital and wasn’t home, they were crowding in there, the people. All kinds, Spanish, Colored, white come in. I was so sick I didn’t know where I was at. And they said Ben, how you feeling? And I said oh, I don’t know. I don’t know whether I got in here. They said well I know you got --- I said yeah. They said well, we come to see you. Anything you need, just holler, that we come to help you. You got a lot of friends. I said well if I find Jimmy Pruchek(?) there. The way you come up was if you had—about the best reputation I’ve seen on anybody. No white man, no black man, nobody got. I don’t know how you made it, but you got it. I said well trying to live right. When my hats out on the edge, tip it to the men and women. Never pass nobody unless I threw up my hand, how do you do. Some were nice, but I try to treat people right. Never been in jail, never been fined, never did no crimes. Paid a nickel for a fine. I paid one fine in my life, and that is for getting on a one-way street. I wasn’t paying no attention because I’d been traveling there the whole time. Two days I was there. And the second day --- I’d traveled it the whole day long the first day, and never did get caught. Second day the cop caught me.

Norman: That’s happened to all of us.

Green: And I told him I hadn’t noticed that that was as one-way street, and he said well—I asked him how much is it? He said if you pay it right now, ---- it would be nothing much. If you pay it off right now, it’ll be ten dollars. I said well, I’ll pay it off right now, he said because if you wait till court, you might have them have them run it thirty to thirty-five or maybe more. And I said well, I’ll pay it off now. He said good and got the receipt to come on. That’s the only fine I ever paid, and that is for getting on the one-way street. Never been fined for fighting or stealing from nobody. Taking nothing but what belonged to me.

Norman: You can be really proud of your life then can’t you?

Green: Oh yes. Now when I went in there the judge had tried  --- one way street. Another fellow said I backed into him and broke his light, but I think that light was already broke to tell you the truth, because they didn’t match. That one over there was good, but this one was broke. I think they both been broke before I hit him. Cause if I had hit him, my lights would have been broke, and his too. But, it didn’t match. I told him well ---. They said what do you think about it Green? And I said I think it’s something else, something fishy going on. Because if I broke that light, it should have matched. If I backed into him with mine, then mine ought to have been broke, and his ought to have been broke. But that one was good over there, and the one over there was a different ---- and the one over here was broke and mine over here wasn’t broke, so it didn’t match. And the man dropped his head and said I think you got something there, I just spoke up and told them the truth. But I’m not going to fight the law. I said whatever it is, were gonna settle it. So, the judge spoke, said if we put it all on there— I’m not charging you fifteen dollars for the cop. The cop who arrested me, I didn’t even know that. But I ain’t got no fines against you at all because you paid off all the damages. So, he said what can I charge you with? I well, you’re the judge and he said well it’s all settled. I asked him, I said do I have to come back here? And he said no, it’s all settled. So, I got off of doing my back door I guess then. So, he called me back and said come here Green, I went back and said alright sir? He said I must tell you that I don’t know of nobody in the county and nowhere else. I mean nobody, not me and I’m a judge—(He) said my reputation ain’t better than yours, well how did you make it? I said trying to live right, and feed everybody right. Regardless of their color. Didn’t make no difference. I protect a little child, a woman, or anybody didn’t make no difference. Even your wife, didn’t make no difference. Is your that is your wife. Well you doing anything… I said mister, is that your wife? He said yes, my … wife. I said well you said a while ago that you were gonna beat her up or do something to her. He said yes, I did and I’m gonna tell you that. I said well I’m going to ask you this much, don’t do it again. Please do not. Cause I cannot stand to see a man beat up a woman. He let me go. I said if you want to do those things or you want to kill her, I’m out of it, but I said don’t smack your wife. She ain’t my family, but I will be into it if you do.

Siler: You think you got this from your father?

Green: Well papa always read the scriptures to us every night. Thirty minutes or an hour before we’d go to bed. We’d say a prayer, but he got to talk to us, and he’d tell us how to live and how to get along with the folks, with the public. He said now I ain’t teaching you to be a coward and let people step on you and run you over. I ain’t trying to do nothing like that, but I’m just teaching you how to get along with folks. He said because whatever is in the blood, you can’t take it out. Says I know, and I don’t need to tell you a whole lot about that because it’s in the blood. I told him yeah, he said but try to live right and treat people with respect. Everybody, it don’t matter who it is. He said don’t do so much as respect every now and then and --- he always talked to me because I was the oldest, and he depended on me for everything he wanted done. I asked mama, I said mama, what’s the date, she said so and so, why son? I said well papa told me to do so and so since yesterday and I didn’t want that day to go. And she said no, it ain’t time yet. And he depended on me, so he’d tell my brother. He’d say Charlie, I want to tell you and Ben to go out there and do so and so and say you be sure to help him because you don’t like nobody’s work. He say all you like is a soft job shining shoes or something like that. But nothing hard, and you talk about throwing a whole lot away, he goes crying in there ---- so he just went on out, he come out and he says, well, all of them called me brother. He says brother, papa told me to help you. I said I know he did but I’m going to be responsible for you, and I’m not going to let him whup you either. I said but you go back in the house Charlie. You go back in the house and find you a nice easy chair or lay down on the bed or something it don’t make no difference to me either way. But just get out of my sight. And he went on in because I told him to. And papa come home that night and said you boys did a nice job. Did Charlie help you some? I said no, but don’t whup him papa. I said because I sent him in the house. You know he don’t like nobody’s work and he come out there crying. Or almost crying and going on and I know he wouldn’t have did nothing, so I had to send him away because I didn’t want to look at him. And he just, okay son, I won’t. I said don’t bother. Because I sent him in there. But I didn’t care nothing about how hard the work was, or how much there was because the more I had --- unless I had more time, you see, I just loved to work. And papa knew that, he knew when he sent Charlie outside to help me and I sent him back in there because I know he didn’t like nobody’s work. He’ll shine shoes, like that --- anything light wasn’t nothing doing. But don’t put no heavy work, nuh-uh, he wasn’t about to do that. But he was a baby --- so I let him go. But it was funny, we come up all those years in the hood. I had one hard fight, I guess. We started in the morning by seven o’clock. And my uncle, my father’s brother, come over there and we’re still fighting, we’d been fighting all morning ---- and neither one wouldn’t quit for nothing. My uncle said well alright, my Uncle stopped us, and he stayed between him and I till Papa come home at noon. He said what’s the matter? He said these two boys was fighting like damn roosters when I come up here, I stopped them and told them I’d stay here and keep them apart. So, he said I bet Charlie started it, because he wouldn’t move two steps to miss a fight. He didn’t bother nobody, he’s nice, polite, but he’s hard to stop when he gets started. So, he said I bet Charlie started it. Said I want the truth now before I go to work. Who started it, Charlie, come on you too. He said Pop, I did, he said I know, I didn’t have to ask to know it, but I know you’re good ---. He said Pop I’ll tell you the truth, you know I love to fight. I wouldn’t just fight for nothing; I love to fight. But I don’t wanna never hook up with my brother no more. He said why? What happened Charlie? He said Papa, if Uncle hadn’t come and stopped us, he probably would’ve killed me, and never did quit smiling. He tell me get on your feet there brother, and never quit smiling, there would be a big old smile on his face. He said every time he’d knock me down, I’d smile. Just like he never did get mad—knock me down and talking sweet and kind. He said I never fought nobody in my life like that he said. He never did raise his voice, just wind up and whack. Every time he’d knock me down, didn’t matter if he knocked me down once or if he knocked me down twelve or fifteen times, he’d stop and say get up out of that mud. I don’t want to beat you down there, just on your feet. It got to where I couldn’t get up. Said he’d reach down and help me and say on your feet now, now little brother, are you gonna behave mighty nice now like you should? He said if I’d have said yes fight would’ve been over. But every time I said “Oh, no”, and (claps hands) smack, and back down I’d go again with him still smiling and laughing. He said if Uncle hadn’t come up and stopped us. I was about wore out so I couldn’t—I was too weak to get up to fight, so he stopped us, and I went and laid down on the wood pile. And he’d chew up chips and spit them out, you know. That’s about all he could do. So here come Papa and he said I never want to hook up with him no more, as long as I live. No sir. I’ll go around him. And he says I never fought nobody that was laughing all the way through. Not with a “haha” but just with a little grin, just with a little smile. Say get on your feet little brother, up. Because I’m not going to hit you down there, only on your feet. He said I’d jump up and run into him again and he’d (clap) down I go. And he hits harder than you. Said I spin around the wood, but I had to sit down because he had so much weight behind that arm, I don’t know what hit—I just couldn’t hack it, that’s all. So, Papa said well, that’s a good way to break you up because you love to fight. Always they fined him. He paid enough fines to almost own a jail. He had one every Monday morning, and into something all the time. But me, I never been into nothing. But he might of—that’s one thing I said about him when he was sleeping. I said look Charlie, you go right on, and he’d mind. He minded like he was my boy. But I don’t know, that might have been because we had that fight that time, but he sure minded. And if he was fighting somebody and I’d walk up and said Charlie what’s the trouble? And he’d go to crying. I’d say well there’s no use crying, what’s the trouble? Tell me what’s going on. He’d tell me and I’d say go on over there and sit down.

[28:00]

He minded so good, ‘til one day three fellas come up there. All balled up and in less than thirty minutes they come up there and called him out. I said Charlie, somethings going on fishy out there. What’s the trouble? I want the truth too. I don’t want you to lie. You know I don’t like no lie. He said no brother, I’ll tell you. They been here less than fifteen minutes, three different men, but not the same men that’s come here. It’s three different men. And I said what’s the trouble, I want the truth, don’t lie to me. Because you know I hate that, he said I know. And I said if you lie, you’ll steal, and I don’t like either one of them. And he said, I know that brother. I said now tell me what it was. He said well they told me not to come downtown. I said huh? What for? What did you do last night that they don’t want you to come to town? He said well, if I come down there, this fella down there is waiting to kill me. He’s walking the street. I said well what did you do? He said I didn’t do nothing. There was a bunch of us, I didn’t do nothing. But he’s accused me of all of it. I said who stole? He say huh? I said who stole? My wife, my first wife, she said where y’all going? I said we’re going to straighten up a little something, just go down. She said ok. We didn’t tell her what for. So, when we got down there, we met a man, a friend of Papa and he said, “Hold up boys, I done got the news and I want y’all to turn around and go right on back home.” And I said well, I sure appreciate your kindness, but it’s got to be settled now. He said “well don’t go.” I said thank you sir and kept on going. I said come on Charlie, we got down there on the beat and the guy was walking up and down there street, but he started to go down behind the buildings, but I’m bragging on my eye, I got a good eye, and I said hold it. When I said hold it, Charlie jumped behind me. But I didn’t look at him. I said come back up on the street, don’t go behind that building. So, he come on back to the corner of the street. He said I thought I told him— I walked up to him and I said good morning. He said good morning. I said we got the news, so I brought your man to you. But all I want is it done, and I want it done fair. No getting up on the buildings, no getting in the trees. You gonna have to do it right out there in street, and I’m going to referee there. But it’s got to be done fair. And if you kill him, I’ll bury him. I’ll take care of him. And if he kills you— (audio cuts out, horn sounds)

[31:33]

So, I walked up to him and told him, now listen. You see if it’s all a lie with people talking and putting out something that wasn’t so. He said that’s right because I haven’t put out no news like that. I said well if you haven’t, I says, then you and Charlie shake hands and go ahead and be friends. I’m going to leave him down here, but I want you to understand one thing, and I don’t want you to forget it. Don’t get up in no buildings, don’t get up in no trees, and no bushwhacking. I said you do it face to face. Because if you do, I will be on your trail till I take you away from this world. He said it’s not going to be like that Green, I said alright. I’m going to leave you here, but I got to tell you that’s my—and he said, no it won’t be that way. He said it’s all over. Said I haven’t put out no news like that, and I said well that’s the news that come to us. Up there, and that’s the reason why I brought him to you, because I want it done fair. Right there. So, Papa got the word, he wasn’t living in San Marcos, he was living, I think he was pastoring in Georgetown ---, and he caught a bus or a ride, or something and got here as quick as he could. Because he got the news and so he got to me first and said son, where is my baby. I said, I got him. He said has anything happened to him, I said not a thing. He said “He’s all right?” I said, “yeah, I settled it Pop.” He said good because I just want to get here, and he said --- and so Charlie told Papa-- I know you went into it, I know you wouldn’t miss a fight. And what did you do now? And he told Papa what for—he said Papa I, love to fight, you know that. Always did, but I --- He says but I ain’t got the nerve of my brother. He said Why? Said he called that fella back up on that street and told him don’t go behind that building. And turned around to me and said if it’s gonna be a gun fight, you’re not too good. Too bad, you’re not, but you’re as rusty as they come— I said let me have him and I’ll take responsibility, and we’ll step it off right there. He said no Green, I wouldn’t go up against you. No sir, no, no. Now we ain’t changing anything. And another thing you shoot, don’t miss, and I said you fast. I wouldn’t take you at all. It’ll have to be Charlie if we do it. Because Charlie wasn’t bad with that knife. He knew how to use it. He’d draw his knife on him and he from here to you, he’d get under you and take you. He’d hold it in his teeth and he’d hold—he’s say turn me loose Brother,

[34:45]

Norman: Who was that? Charlie?

Green: That was Charlie.

Norman: He was good with a knife, huh?

Green: Oh yeah, he was very good. He thought more of a knife than he did a gun. He said a knife won’t snap, but a gun will. He had no confidence in a gun. But he sure was bad with that knife. He’s fought from coast to coast if you hear of my brother it’s true. And in the Army, if he got the whiskey ----  he didn’t much walk with god or stay god --- Saying that he didn’t because he did, and if the man had his side up there and he killed a fellow in San Angelo and the judge walked the floor and said this is the worst charge I’ve ever seen come in the court room. (laughs) It looked bad for Charlie.

Siler: When was this?

Green: hmm?

Siler: When was this?

Norman: When was the trial in San Angelo?

Green: Murder.

Norman: Do you remember when it was?

Green: No, I don’t remember what year it was. But Pop and Charlie went up to trial, and Papa told Charlie, he says that old judge, the way he’s working. Said you’re going to go and you’re going to hang baby. Charlie said no he had a .22, that old man is a cripple, but he was working on you Charlie.           

Norman: So, what happened?

Green: So, when he come out, and told him he got fourteen years in the state penitentiary. But he didn’t put it all up. I think he put up six or seven years. But he never did go to fourteen.

[36:40]

Norman: Was that in Huntsville?

Green: That was in Huntsville. After he killed that fellow, he got fourteen years and he had to got off light then. He said the judge said we ought to give you more, but that’s close enough. So, he got out of it. So, he told Papa—Mrs. Ferguson, she was the governor—and she told Papa herself would you like to have that baby home --- and he said please, Mrs. Ferguson. And she said Reverend, he’ll be home right away. I put him under five years penance sentence, and he mustn’t do nothing before that five years run out. Then he’ll have to put up both of them, but I’ll send him home. And sure enough, she did. Charlie wrote Papa a letter, I don’t know how he got it out of the penitentiary, from behind the walls. But that letter told Papa, he said Papa, please get me out of here as soon as you can. Because if you don’t, I may have to stay here the rest of my life. He said this guard that’s holding me don’t like no colored man. He said he’s rough and he picks on me the whole time, and I don’t like it. He said if I ever get close enough to him, he says I’ll finish him off. I can’t get no closer that twelve or fifteen feet to him, because he got a gun. A shotgun on him ---- So, after he wrote that to Papa, Papa wrote back and didn’t tell him about the guard or any goings on but wrote back to her and said please get him out before something happens. So, she put him out on five years pending sentence, so he didn’t put up fourteen years. And he was tough all right. I didn’t say that cause he’s my brother, but he was tough. Me and him got along all right, but he didn’t have ---- didn’t matter what color they was, or how bad they was. If they wanted to fight, it didn’t matter if it was a house full, he’d cut his way down… cut his way down there and drove his way down through thirty-five men, cutting his way with that knife. Some of them jumped out the window, some of them fell in a barrel of water ----

Norman: He had that place…

Green: Oh yes, come Monday morning there was a fine. He didn’t let nobody abuse him. If they didn’t say excuse me or they get rough, he’d tell them to ----

[40:13]

Norman: Did he stay on the move a lot, or did he stay around here?

Green: He stayed mostly. Going on the road, he couldn’t stay in one place too long. He stayed out in San Diego, in California awhile. And San Angelo, there he was having fines all the time because he was fighting all the time. So, I quit helping him. Every Monday morning, me and Papa would have to get him out of jail. So, one Monday morning I asked Papa-- Papa come to me and said Charlie’s in jail, can you help me get him out? I said this time I ain’t gonna help him do nothing. I said Papa, I’m not gonna help him do nothing. I said the only way we can break him up is if we quit breaking him out. Or he’ll be that way forever. I said I’m gonna let him squeeze his own rope this time. I ain’t gonna give him a penny this time. He’s just gonna have to ---.   Well Papa stayed sore at me for about three months. We lived all in the same house, but he didn’t say much to me because I refused to help Charlie. I said well it don’t make no difference to me, and if I’m not welcome here, I said I can get a room at another house. But this time, I tell you, I’m not getting him out. Having to get him out every Monday morning ain’t no good. And I’m not gonna pay one nickel. Not gonna spend one dime on it no more. So, finally he come around and said “Son, you’re right. Charlie is in trouble so much, he’s my baby, but I don’t blame you for stopping, cause he’s gonna get old.” I said yeah, every Monday morning, that’s what we have to do, so I decided I wasn’t gonna do it no more. The only way to break him of it was to let him go down yonder after he go down there with----.  Maybe he’ll come back a different boy—a different man. Because they don’t baby them down there. And he said I don’t want him to go down there, and I said well I don’t want him down there either. But that’s the only way to break him of it because he’s just fighting all the time. He loved it.

Norman: What do you think caused him to like fighting so much?

Green: And he bad with that knife too, always cutting up somebody. And would go in a fist fight too. In a minute, even if he didn’t want to, didn’t make him much difference. But he wasn’t much of a gunner. He said a gun would snap; he’d say give me a knife. He’d say a knife won’t snap. If he ever hooked up with you and he got you, he come at you holding that knife in his teeth, holding that blade. You better break loose before he get that blade in you because he’d— (Siler laughs)

Siler: He did…

Green: He did every time. Didn’t make no difference how many would come, they’d hook up and you’d find them all --- as soon as he could put his mouth on them. He was bad with that knife. That morning me and him fought, we didn’t pull no knives. We started with him chunking at me, and I told him Charlie, quit chunking, you might hit me in the eye. (overlapping talking in the background) And so—but he was a hot head, he wouldn’t stop. So, he picked up a rotten potato there—we had some potatoes in the yard out there, leave them there to rot. And he throwed it. I told him to quit, and it hit me right in the forehead, but it just went all to pieces, rotten you know. So, I kept on, come on to him. I got the rotten brushed it out of my face and kept walking on to him. He was laughing, and he come on up there. When he got there, I said Charlie, I told you to quit throwing because you might hit me in the eye, and you’re hot headed, you wouldn’t quit (claps hands) and down he went. He got up, it made him mad, and he got up cryin’ and the fight really started then. And every time he’d get up (claps hands) down he’d go. And I’d say get on your feet there brother, I wouldn’t hit you down there, only on your feet. He’d jump up and run into me again (claps hands) down he’d go back again. I knocked him down so much that I wore him out to where he couldn’t get up. And so—me laughing all the time, with just a little grin on my face (Siler laughs). And Mama was the same way. She whupped a whole family of people. The girls, the boys, all of them, and never did quit laughing. That was Mama. She’d run them all out and have that clothesline hitting at them, you know. And then --- they just keep running, and she’d tell them to run, run, run quick. And she’d be after them. And she’d just whup them all, just laughing, the whole family. And helpin’ another woman out, and they wanted to jump on her, and Mama told them that was wrong. Cause she can’t fight all of you. Why you all want to jump on her? Said one’s enough. They said what’s she got to do with this? She said a heap, if y’all try to jump on her, I be into it to, so they come to jump on us, and Mama would be in it too. And that how it came to be— they was white.

Norman: Oh, so she wasn’t spanking her family.

Green: No, she got into it with another family.

Norman: Oh, so she wasn’t spanking you all.

Green: No, she got into it with another family, and was helping her out.

Norman: I see.

Green: She helped out that other woman. She told me, said it wasn’t right for the whole family to jump on this one woman. So, they said what you got to do with it? And she said a lot if y’all want to jump on her, cause I’m gonna be in here too. And they said well you gonna have to be in it, and that’s when the fight started.

Norman: And she whupped them all, huh?

Green: Whupped them all. (Norman laughs)

Norman: That’s some woman.

Green Some woman. Because every time they jump on her, that’s the way it went.

Norman: Did your brother stay out of trouble for five years like he needed to.

Green: He did. He didn’t get into nothing. He said it was hard, he said he go in the prison and people would step on his feet and didn’t say excuse me. He said he’d say excuse me sir, please get off my feet. Please—

 

[End tape 1A: 47:31]

[Start tape 1B: 00:00]

 

Norman: Did your brother stay out of trouble for five years like he needed to?

Green: He did. He didn’t get into nothing. He said it was hard, he said he go in the prison and people would step on his feet and they wouldn’t say excuse me. He said hey fella, you’re on my foot. Say get off my foot please. Said they’d say a big word, and he’d want to grab them and fight, but he --- another five years in this building. He just had to grit his teeth. He said it sure was hard for five years.

Norman: Oh, I bet it was.

Green: And they’d push him around and hit him with their elbows. He’d look at them and he’d want to get after them, but he knew it was only five years. And he better be quiet. Cause Mrs. Ferguson said if he get into anything else—said Reverend, he’ll have to put up the time. What he do now, and the rest of the time in the pen. They’d put that time on there. Said I just suspended it for five years. Five years suspended sentence. So Charlie stayed out of it. He let them step on his foot, let them push him around. And I says Charlie, that’s kind of tough wasn’t it? He said brother, it sure was tough, but you know I had hold myself down because I had five years suspended sentence, and I didn’t want to have to go back down there.

Norman: He never did have to go back?

Green: No, he never wanted to go back. I told him, well, I don’t blame you it sure was rough down there.

Norman: Did you kids go to school?

Green: Who?

Norman: You and your brothers and sisters?

Green: He went and sister and other sister—all of us. When I went up to --- (distorted audio, rooster crowing in background). And I stopped on account of wages so cheap. I said, Papa, I said I’m going to stop school and get me a job so I can help you. So, I can help take care of my sisters and brother. And he said well son I hate to see you do that, and I said well, I can get a job. And I did. I quit. ---- If I’d have went on, I could’ve finished, but I quit. Wages was so cheap then, six pence to a dollar a day and near four or five to live out there. ---- were cheap back then, you know. You could get a big pot of --- for two or three dollars. You could pack it under your arm now for eight to ten dollars—

Norman: Right. What kind of work did you do when you quit school?

Green: I quit, and I went to work for Mr. Rogers. Knee pants schoolboy couldn’t work till after four o’clock, and would work ‘till closing up time. My turn would come to be his hearse driver and horse man.

Norman: What kind of business did he have?

[03:12]

Green: The undertaker work.

Norman: Undertaker!

Green: Undertaker and big country store and undertaker work.

Siler: And this was in San Marcos?

Green: Right here in San Marcos. When Meningitis was going around killing folk, and influenza—they was just dying --- shootin’. I’d be in it.

Norman: And you were just a kid.

Green: Nothing but a knee pants schoolboy. But nobody there but the pallbearer. It would be whoever was handling the body and me. You couldn’t go, your family couldn’t go. Or if they quarantined the house, you know, nobody could leave because to leave was contagious if you touched it right now. Every time I did Mr. Rogers would pat me on the shoulder and say I think as much of you as my own boy, and I hope you come back. Because that disease is killing children just like that. And I said don’t worry, I’ll be back. He said well, I hope so. I went through that whole thing, and never did get a bump.

Norman: Aren’t you lucky.

Green: They vaccinated me three or four times, tried to make it take and couldn’t. They tried to stick my arm so I couldn’t get my hat off my head. And they couldn’t. And so the Doctor over there couldn’t --- he said this case here is puzzling me here. I don’t know what to do.  We can’t stick in this arm, and we can’t make a vaccination take on him. What does he do? And the other doctor says it’s your cases, we’re just helping you. So, they wrote to the big doctor. The state doctor, and told him to come down, that they had something they couldn’t solve. He walked in; he says where is your patient. They said that’s him over there. And he said what, what, what, what—he went to laughing. They said what’s so funny doctor? Just what, what, what, what, what, what-- He kept laughing. After a while he quit laughing, and he says you are the Hays County Health Doctor, I can fire you. But I ain’t ‘cause you need the work. But these other two, I can’t do nothing with them, they don’t know me. He said, but I’m going to say this, all three of you need to go back to school and study some more. What’s wrong doctor? He says, whenever you get far enough advanced and graduate enough on doctor work. He says you’ll know a doomed(?) case when you see it. When you’re as old as me, you’ll know it when you see it. He says that boy knew that you can’t make nothing take on him. He said you can’t make a vaccination take, you can’t make a vaccination take --- in his arm. He said no kind of contagious disease don’t take up with him. And I went through the smallpox, and the meningitis and all of it, and I’m still here. Didn’t have a problem. If you had children, you couldn’t take them nowhere without catching the bug, it was fixed. Having smallpox, and the head would bust open and the white would come out. It’s bad. And Mr. Rogers pat me on the shoulder and said … I hope nothing going to happen to you, he said I think as much of you as I do my own boy. He said I hope you come back, I said don’t worry, I’ll be back. And sure enough, I come back.

Norman: Mr. Green, I need to go back to…

(audio distorts, recording stops)

(recording starts)

Norman: Could you tell us what your wife’s name was, and when you were married?

Green: You mean before I married her?

Norman: Yeah

Green: Her name was Bertie Norwood, that was before I married her.

Norman: You know—what was the last name?

Green: Bertie Norwood?

Norman: N-O-R-W-O-O-D?

Green: (grunts) Norwood.

Norman: When were you married?

Green: Oh, I can’t remember that year. Been a good while ago, and her and I been separated for-- oh, I don’t know. I didn’t keep up with that either. But we separated, she, I moved to Austin. I moved them up there in (19)25, during the drought. And I quit them and left them in (19)28.

Norman: How many children did you have?

Green: Four. Two girls and two boys. And I never did go back to her again no more. We just quit then. When I went, I went up there and told them that morning, and told them, all of you after breakfast come in the living room. I got to tell you something. So, when they got through with breakfast, the children and her, all of them in there. And said what you got to say Daddy? Said what I’m going to tell you right now that I’m going to be quitting your mama. And there ain’t gonna be no coming back. Cause this is it. And my youngest girl spoke up, and she said, Daddy if you go, I’m going. Cause I ain’t gonna stay here. I said, no you stay here with your mama and your older sister and brothers. And she said I won’t and if you leave, I leave. If I have to go and live out under a shade tree, I’m not going to stay here. So, she starts talking a whole lot. And I stopped her. I said hold it, you just stand there and say nothing. Because your mama is one of the best friends you ever had. And I said never turn against --- because that’s the best friend you’ll ever have. She said well I guess that’s right. I said yeah, that’s right. I said but, you just stay here. She said I ain’t gonna stay here Daddy. If you go, I’m goin (audio distorts) And she said well, I said that’s good enough, cause I ain’t gonna stay here. So, I said you don’t have to. So, we passed it on off and when I got ready to leave, I said well, goodbye to everybody, but if you get in need, some of you get out and have to have help. Just cause I’m quittin, don’t think I won’t come to your rescue. I will, and try to help you if I can. Cause me and her—she can go with anybody she want to and start now. Don’t have to wait to get out of my name, don’t have to wait to get divorced. Just start now, cause I ain’t—I’m through. So, she just stood there and listened. And we got through, and I finished my subject. And I said well that’s all I got to say, and that’s it. So, just remember, if you need me. If any of you get sick, if something happens to you, you know where I am. You get in touch with me, and I’ll try to come help you if I can. Cause all I could say was you’re my children, all of you. --- Go by what your mama says. So alright, we passed it off that way. So, I quit, and I never did go back. I moved them up there in (19)28, in (19)25 that was during the drought. I left them there three years later. And so, that was it.

[11:14]

Norman: Do you ever see them anymore?

Green: Oh yeah, whenever they call me and want to. I’d go up there and see what they wanted, but I never did get with her no more, I just quit and that was all. She asked me one day, she said Daddy ain’t you never gonna come back home so all the family can be together? I said nuh-uh, I said when I try anything once, and when I get loose on it, I don’t take it back no more. But one thing I will say is I don’t carry no prejudice in my body against nobody. Whatever is done is done, but when I get through, I’m done. I was that way with all the women I went with. When I told them this is it, I’m through, and don’t look for me back I didn’t go back no more. I wasn’t a man to quit and hang around and beg on my knee. It just takes one mistake you make and I’m through. And there’s two things I can’t stand: is a thief and a liar. I never could in my life. I don’t know if I—I don’t hate Papa and I don’t hate Mama, but if they would do the same like that, I wouldn’t feel like I do. I can’t stand it. So, Papa used to tell me one thing about it, my oldest boy, you can put yourself bad with him. If you lie to him, or if you steal anything from him, ‘cause he don’t like that. If you go to things, he just won’t go to them no more. And I was that way, and I’d tell him, like I read the --- about something. About a hunk of meat. I said Pop where is it, and don’t lie to me. If you want to be good with me the rest of your days, just don’t lie to me. And they say well, brother so and so and so and so. And I’d say get it. You lost me. I don’t want nothing of yours, and I don’t want you to take nothing of mine, unless you ask me first. If I want to give it to you I will. I just couldn’t stand it. So, one day, my brother and sisters, all of us were standing there, the four of us, and they come to me and said brother, we’ve got a little problem worked out. But we want all of us brothers and sisters to be into it, and want you to. I said well shoot and tell me what you got on. So, when they got through telling me what they wanted to do, and I didn’t know that was gonna justify it for me, I didn’t know it until afterwards. I said y’all got it all figured out now, huh? They said yeah, I said well number one: I don’t want no parts of it. And number two: it’s wrong. And I won’t go with you or Papa or Mama or nowhere. It’s wrong. So, you just figure me out. O-U-T, out. ‘Cause I ain’t going in there. They said all right, and that was it. So Papa come in there and asked them, he said did y’all get Ben to go along with y’all? And I said no, and he told us number one it wasn’t right, and number two it was wrong and he didn’t want no parts of it as long as it wasn’t right. He said I didn’t think you’d get him to go. He said there’s four of y’all and I don’t want you to grow prejudiced against me or hating me cause I’m the daddy. ‘Cause I think more of him than something like that. He said don’t do that, he said there’s four of y’all, but he’s just a little different from you other three. Said my wife, Mama said we never will raise Ben, my Dad said why? She said he’s different from the other children. He’s got ways more like Jesus Christ than he does human beings, and I don’t think we’ll ever raise him wrong. You’ll never see him as a grown man doing wrong. Papa said well I sure do hope so, because one thing, I sure can depend on him, and I’d sure hate to lose—Mama said yeah, I would too, but said he’s just a little different. All the other children be out there playing and you know like they do on Halloween and like they do on other days, and I would just be squatting around there on my hindquarters or just watching them, and when they start to do something, I’d say hold it. They’d say what is it Ben? I’d say don’t do that. So, they wouldn’t, they would all mind, so well, they come one night for my brother and me too. One Halloween night when you can out and do anything. So, they said you want Ben to go? And they said, no, we don’t want him. We can’t have no fun with him, they said send Charlie out, we’ll take him along. He’ll go along with us, but Ben won’t. They said we don’t want him along, so I went out with them one time, and they couldn’t do what they wanted to, so they wouldn’t never take me no more. They said let’s shear that horse up and make him look like a mule. I said un-uh, don’t do that. If the lord wanted that horse to look like a mule, he would have been a mule. But he’s a horse and he needs his tail and mane to keep the flies away, so don’t shear him up. They had to leave that alone. So, they wanted to do something else, and I said nu-uh. That man has got his sign up there and don’t put his sign over there on that man’s and bring that man’s sign over here because that sign don’t belong here. They belong where they are. So, they wouldn’t take me no more Halloween night, because I wouldn’t let them do nothing wrong. So Papa told them, told Mama—said Roxy, you see I hope we raise ‘em—there’s four of them and ain’t nothing for the other three, but I hope God will let him stay here. And so all of them passed except me, so I had him come up with me until he died. This was his eyes, this stick, and he says son, I’m praying to the lord to spare you, and give you more years to live. You’ve been so faithful to me. Said if it hadn’t been for you and you being my eyes and taking care of me plumb up till the end, and I want you to live a long time. And I said well Pop, you was my daddy, and I just figured I couldn’t do too much for you. And I would not put him in the old folks, or the rest home. Mm-mm. And I said as long as I got eyes and can see, Papa stays with me ‘til the end. And they said well you need somebody there, your Daddy’s blind and you got to work, and I said that’s alright, I’ll manage. They said, well you got to have a cook, I said I can cook. I can fix dinner. I can watch him. I can do anything a woman can do. Even sew and darn, anything. But I learned all of that after my first wife quit me. She made a perfect widow to some bachelor after I left, because I had it all to do and I’m still doing all of it living alone. And I can’t find nobody who want to live in the country, so I just go ahead and make out. But I can sew, wash, iron. Clean out anything a woman can do. And like I used to tell my wife, I’d say honey how do you feel? And she’d say I don’t feel so good. And I’d say yeah, you want me to go ahead and take over, don’t you? And she’d say yeah, and kinda smile and tell me yeah. I’d say what do you want then for your breakfast? I’ll fix it and bring it in. Put it on the table and you can come to. And after I’d fix it, I’d say you just wanted me to take over. That’s all you wanted me to do. I said you wasn’t fooling me. And she’d say, well, you’re better in a way than I am and said I just didn’t feel good and thought I’d let you do it. And I said I don’t mind. I figure I can’t do too much for you as long as you wear my name.

Norman: You did get married again then, after leaving Norwood?

Green: Oh yeah, me and her separated and I got to going with another woman. And she was so nice to Papa, with him blind. Until I told her one day, she says I think I just want to do something for him because he can’t see, and the world is dark to him. And she was just so nice to him. So, I watched all the way through, she treated him so good and cooked him good dinners, she was good to him. So, one day I said to her, I said well, I don’t make promises that I turn on. Said if I promise anything, I stay behind it. I don’t just say it to be talking. So, I said there if Papa goes before I do, I said just marry me. I says I might take you in, take you home, or marry you, whatever you want to do. Because she had been awful nice to him. And I watched everything, and said I guess if you could be nice to him, you could be nice to me. But you don’t have to, Papa had to have you because he couldn’t see, but I got my eyes and I got my health, and I said if things don’t go right, I can move. I can make other arrangements. So, when time come and Papa passed, we end up gotten married.

Norman: Do you remember what year that was?

Green: And she had two children, four children. Two—three boys and one little girl. So, we were married, but me and her didn’t never have no children. And I had four children by my first wife, but I didn’t have anybody ‘cept—

Norman: Do you remember what year it was that you two married?

Green: No, I don’t. I should’ve put it down, it ought to have gone in the bible with all the other dates. We had all our dates in the bible. Papa had them in there, but the house caught on fire and the bible got burned up in the house, so we lost all account of what they were.

Norman: What was her name?

Green: My second wife?

Norman: Mm-hmm

Green: Annie

Norman: Was she from--

Green: She was Annie Jones, and after I married her, she come to be Annie Green.

Norman: Was she from San Marcos?

Green: In San Marcos. She lived and I was living in San Marcos at that time. And my first wife was Bertie Norwood. And we had four children. Two girls and two boys.

[23:05]

Norman: And Annie died you said?

Green: She died before Bertie did. She had been dead now— I guess ten or twelve years. She was the first one died, she was my second wife. But Bertie just passed just a little before this last Christmas, she’s been dead a little better than a year. She was my first wife.

Norman: Could you tell us about your work at the Academy?

Green: My work at the Academy?

Norman: mm-hmm

Green: Oh yeah, I was at the—I was what they called a handy man. I mastered every job that was laying undone. When the furniture man, who kept the furniture at the school, when he got out of place, the boss man put me on it, and I’d take care of it until he come in. When the plumber— something happen to him and he couldn’t do it, he’d come get me, say Ben such and such a room, in such and such a place just busted, and fix it. And I fixed it. He had a man out making rock walls, just making rock walls around campus. And he didn’t want to work, so boss was really anxious to get it done, and I wasn’t cooking then, I was just a roustabout. What you would call a handy man. And he said just quit that job and bring up that wall up over there, because that fellow ain’t working today. Alright, I’d go and do it. So, he hired a man— a painter, to get the rooms freshened up and make them look good when the students come in. Well, when he got out of place, I’d take the brush and went right on with the rooms.

[25:04]

And he spoke up to me, he say my father, back in Alabama--this president was telling me--he had a plantation with a bunch of slaves. But he never had a slave like you. He says, you are the only man that I ever had working for me ever that could just master any kind of work, and just do anything. And he said we never had a slave that could do that. He said we had some mighty good workers, but not like you. You can pick up anything and go right on. Well, that woman, she loved painting pictures, she was an art woman, and she come down there and she said Ben. And I said yes’m? She said I wonder if you could make me a lot of little carts. For Easter, we’re going to have an Easter party for the kids in my class. I said I could try, just tell me how you want them done. She said well a different design, I want some of them with a tattoo—with two horses—and I want some of them with some shelves in it and one horse. And make wooden wheels for them. I said well, you just tell me how you want it or draw it out on a paper, and I’ll try to build them for you. And so, she told me how many she wanted and when she come back after, I had them all rolled up on the work bench. And she said that’s exactly what I wanted.

So, every time something was going wrong, the boss man Mr. Brown—that was his name, Jesse Brown. He said did you talk to Ben, he said no, I haven’t seen him. He said he’s the only man on the campus that can master anything. And if whatever you want done, if you go and explain to him, I believe he can get it done. And so, he come to me and said your name Ben Green? I said that’s right. He said I got a problem Ben, and I’d say what’s your problem. He’d tell me. He’d say can you fix it for me, I’d say I’d try. He’s say all right, when can I get it, I’d say you come tomorrow. Give me two or three days, because I’ve got other work to do besides that little job you got, and two or three other jobs. And he’d say okay, here you go. And he’d come back to get it after a while. And after two or three days—when Mr. Brown got ready to quit the school and they was gonna get another president for the Academy, the school. He made them talk to all the help in the kitchen, and a lot of the students were there around close. Says I’m out, fixin’ to go back home, back down to Alabama, y’all are about to get a new boss and said there’s one man in the whole bunch that I’d like to take to Alabama. They said who’s that? He said Ben, he’s a master. Can master any kind of work and said he’s got a wonderful gift, too. He said I wish I had his gift. He said, what is his gift Mr. Brown? He said well, I studied the human nature book that thick, and graduated on it, that’s Mr. Brown. But he come in this world that way. You don’t fool him with no anger. Said he knows people. He said I wish I would’ve had that gift from birth, but I didn’t. I studied that book and graduated on it, but said he come here, and he knows it. And said you can’t fool that man with no anger. Said when he walks into the chapel, where all the students is, when he hits the door, he said he sees everybody. How’d he manage to do that? He’s got those flashing eyes, the gift to see people. Make him a good protector because you couldn’t hide from him. Told—so a fellow told me—two or three fellas told me that.

So, I went on up there when my brother was in there, he was back to county. But I wasn’t just looking for him, I wasn’t looking for nobody else. So, when I hit the door, when I opened the door, they though I was the law. They all broke and run and hid, some of them jumped out the window, some of them went down the steps. They thought I was the law and didn’t want to get caught. So, when I got ready to leave I said brother Charlie hasn’t been up here at all? They said no, haven’t seen him Green. I said all right, if you see him, tell him I want to see him. I’m looking for him if he’ll come to the house, or come to where I’m working, ‘cause I want to see him. They said okay. And I said you hid behind that stovepipe; you can come on out too. And he said how’d you see me? I said I seen everybody when they hit the door, but you can’t hide behind a stove pipe. It’s too little, you got to get something larger, so they won’t see you. Then they laughed. Said I’d tell you, you sure got eyes, can’t fool you. So well, they went on that way, and I come out, but I didn’t see my brother until that night that he come in. Come in sometime that night, I don’t know what time. But Papa used to tell him too, said I don’t know what to say, but he’s a little different than you three. Said you don’t fool him.

[31:07]

So, well my wife, my first wife, she’d tell me. Say honey they did something, and I whupped them all today, to be sure to get the right one. I said that’s wrong Bertie. I said you could’ve whupped an innocent one, one that wasn’t guilty. I said don’t do it no more if you can keep from it. I said next time they do something, you turn it over to me. And I’m known not to miss none of them. She said I’ll try. I’ll do that Daddy. So, two or three days she told me again, Well honey I didn’t whup them this time, but they did something, and you said let you handle it next time. I said all right, all of you line up in the floor like you in class, like you in school. And when they did, I said come here son, he said Daddy, I ain’t gonna do it no more. (All laugh.) He don’t miss them. So, they did it again, and they did it again. She said I didn’t bother this time because you said not to whup them all that you could whup an innocent one. And get the right one. So, I told them to line up, but it was only the girls that time. I said come here baby, she said Daddy please don’t whup me, said I ain’t gonna do it no more. So, I said alright. I never did miss now. Every time I called the one out. The one that did it. So, my mother-in-law, she was an old lady, she was crippled. She thought the world of me though, as much as she did of one of her boys, she had three boys, and eight girls. She said you won’t confess it, but I must tell you, you’re a mind reader, but you won’t confess it. I said Ma you’re wrong. You’re badly wrong. I said I’m gifted from birth to know human nature. I said but I ain’t no mind reader, nobody don’t fool me in no anger. I said that’s all, but I’m no mind reader. She said yeah, everything you say is so true. And said you catch the right one and I know you’re a mind reader. And I said no I ain’t I just know people. And she says all right. Well, she had come down to showdown where it had to be proved. One day I come in from work at twelve o’clock, had to be back at one. And there’s a beautiful woman sitting there talking to my mother-in-law, and I walked in and said how do you do mam’? And she jumped, I said baby don’t get nervous, she’s in my house where I lived too. She said I’m not, that’s all right. I said ‘cause I don’t mean to make you nervous, I just want to speak to you. And she asked my wife—my first wife. Said who is he, she said that’s his wife back there in the kitchen fixin’ his dinner. She says ohh, that man has got power. She said when he spoke it just went all through me, I just couldn’t help but jump. And so, she said well that’s her husband coming in, she said he’s got that power. So, I said alright, and it went on that way. So that night, I come home from work and mother-in-law, she says son—she always called me son just like she did her boys. She says what kind of– tell me about this woman who was here today. You never have missed a one that come in this house, I want to know about her. I said what do you want to know about her Ma? She says well her and my daughter is just like that, like two in a peanut shell, they run together. And they kneel side by side, and I just want to know about it. Because you know people, they don’t fool you. And I said well Ma, I tell you and I guess it still is this roof. I says that’s the first time I ever seen her is today, when you introduced me to her. But I said she’s just as crooked as the --- she said, she is? I said yeah, but you don’t have to take my word for it, go up there and visit your daughter. And stay behind the window shades and watch and see if I told you the truth. So, she did, she stayed up there a week or two and come back. Well, she come home, and I come back that evening and she grabbed my hand and comes to sobbing all over the floor. I asked my wife, what’s the matter with Ma? She said I don’t know, is she happy or—She finally settled down she says I keep telling you son you’re a mind reader, but you won’t confess it. I says Ma I’m not, but I know people. She says yes, and that woman that was here, that pretty woman who jumped when you spoke. I says yeah, what about her? She said I stayed behind the curtain, just looking over the fence between them. And I watched closely because you had told me about her. Well, what happened? She says, just like you said, she was just as crooked as she could be. I says what happened? She said she’d kiss her husband off to work, and she’d kiss another man in the back door coming in. I said I told you she wasn’t no good (laughs). She said how do you know somebody? I said I know people (laughs). She’s actually shouting over what I said. She went on and said I wish I had your gift. I said Mr. Brown said that too, but you ain’t got it.

So, they come in and I had—and I love people too, you know for misery, gifted, more pain, headache, anything, even if they had a broken bone. So, I come in and seen all those people in my yard, and I said something must be going on, something must have happened in my house, all them folks are there. So, I come on up, spoke to everybody, said how is everybody? And they spoke, and I went on in and said honey, what’s all these people doing in the yard? Something happen here? Some accident on the road coming in? She said no, they’re waiting for you. I said waiting for me for what? She said I don’t know, but they waiting for you. And I walked out and said y’all want to see me? They said yessir, we waiting here for you. I said what’s your trouble? They said different things. So, I asked them, went and washed my hands up and wiped them on a towel, rolled my sleeves up. I said who’s first here? And this old lady, she’s one sided, had her head to one side. She says, I am. I said come in madam, so she went on in. If a few minutes, she was straight. When she left, she was straight. I said, who’s next? And an old man said he was. I said come right in sir. I turned them all out in a little while. All of them walking straight, and their heads was all right. And I washed my hands good and shuck it off. And my mother-in-law spoke again, says oh, you got power and a wonderful gift. Said you sent all of those people away from here straight. Some of them were walking bent over, some of them was walking one sided, and you sent them all away straight. I says I can get anything except a broken bone. That misery in your head or in your arms. Anywhere about your body, I’ll move it, but I got to shake it off because I take it up too. Said well, I wish I had a gift like that, I said I do too, but they didn’t.

Here come a little old man, ah he looked like a jockey rider. He was coming behind me and he said I have a question. I looked back, he said “Mister.” I looked back and he didn’t say nothin’, just looked away, so I kept walking. He said “Mister!” I stopped again. The third time he called me, I stopped and said what’s the trouble? He said I never seen you before in my life, have I? I said I wouldn’t know. He said well the voice spoke to me, and I don’t know where it come from. Just stop that man going there, and that’s why I called you. I said what’s the trouble? He said you see here, I said yeah, what about it? He said that’s as high as I can take them. I said well what you want me to do about it? He said I don’t know that voice told me to stop you, and that’s all I know. I said what’s the matter, he said I can shake my hat off my head down there, I can reach down and pick it up, but I can’t put it on my head. Cause I can’t take my hands no higher than that. I said, oh, I see. You want to put your hat on, don’t you with your own hands. You can’t carry it high enough to put it on. He says that’s right. I said, all right, come on in here. I’ll see what I can do for you. I said pull your shirt off, he says I can’t. I can’t do it, you’ll have to pull it off. I pulled it off and I did. I got a liniment that I made, got some in there now. And I went to work on him. And watch me once, I said get your hat on. He said nu-uh, I can’t do that. I haven’t do that for days and months. I said you can now. So, get it off. He said I just can’t. I said oh, can’t is dead. I said get your hat off. You scared to trust that voice that told you to stop me? He said oh no sir, no sir, no sir. I said well get that hat off your head. So, he first went up and said look at that. I said go on man, quit lookin’ at your hand and get your hat off. He got hold onto his hat, and he says Oh! And he comes to shoutin’ and comes to crying. And I said nu-uh, I don’t like to see nobody cry, even a baby. But you can get it off with that hand. Now you can get your hat off your head. He said yes sir, I can. I said nuh-uh, don’t cry. He says I’m so happy. Said that voice wasn’t joking when it told me to stop you. I said uh-uh, don’t cry, just be rejoicing you can get your hat off. So, I stopped him, said now you can put your shirt on too. I won’t help you do that. He said, let’s see. Grabbed his shirt, put it on good and buttoned it up. And I said you get your hat off, and now you’re okay. He says I ain’t through with you. I said what’s the trouble now? What else you got? He said I got a wife over yonder, at home. Said she’s been in the—I been helping her up for eighteen months, said she ain’t been out of bed—ain’t been able to get out of bed herself in a year and a half. I said and you want me to go over there and put her out of bed? He said yeah, cause look what you did for my arms and hands. So, I said well I’ll try. So, I grabbed my bottle of liniment and put it in my pocket and went on over there. Nice looking lady. I said what’s the trouble madam? She said I don’t know. I says can you get up? She said no, if you help me up, I can get up and I’m up for the day, but says if you don’t help me up, I just have to lay here. I says ok, lets see what you need. But you ain’t got no pain? She said no, not a bit. Not no measure at all. But they been helping you up for the start, and once you’re up, you good for the day until the next morning. She said that’s right. So, the old man told her, said don’t be bashful just let him work on you honey, ‘cause you see what he done for me? I can get my hat off on my own. Said he’ll put you right at there too. She says all right. So, he went on out and I says you don’t have to tell me where your pain and misery is. I says if it’s anywhere on your body, when I touch you, I’ll find it. But if you ain’t got none, I won’t find it. So, all right, I went on and worked on her a little. I had this liniment, same one I got hanging in there. I mix this equal part, it’s a home remedy. It will do anything except mend a broken bone, it don’t knit that. But any misery you got in your shoulders or legs or arms, got to go. Even the swelling, got to go. If your feet swell, got to go. As long as it ain’t a broken bone. It’s all right. I worked on her a little while until I had to shuck it off. Shake my arms out a little bit, keep from taking it on myself. So finally, I went to her, I says get out of bed. She says I can’t do that. I said you can. Okay today come on out. And so, she finally came through it. She said I can’t do that, I haven’t been able to do it for eighteen months. I said it don’t matter if it’s been ten years, you can do it now. I said you’re not trying. Come on up, you can do it now, come up and come out. So, she did on the second effort. Got up a little bit higher. And she threw her head, and finally she get up. I was still shaking it off my hands. So finally, the third time she straightened up and got out of bed. I said now you’re workin’. Come on up. I said I ain’t gonna let you fall, I’m too close to you. So, she stood up I said walk off, she says-- I said I ain’t gonna let you fall. Just make a step, I’ll catch you if you gonna fall. She was scared to trust herself, finally she made a step and she walked on off across the room. When she did, she hollered for her husband. Honey, she says come here. He come running in, hat in his hand, he says what’s the trouble? She say I got up myself, he didn’t help me. He said I told you he’d put you out of that bed. She said I sure did. I said lay down again lady and get up in front of him and show him that you can get up. So, she laid down, stretched out, and put her feet on the bed. I said now, swing your feet around, and get up in front of your husband, and walk off. And she did. And so…

[End tape 1B: 47:14]

[Start tape 2A: 00:00]

Green: So, he started crying again. I said nuh-uh-uh, I told you don’t cry. I don’t like to see grown folks cry even a baby. Cause they can’t help it. But I said, your trouble is all over, so getting her out of bed—she’ll get up from now on herself. He says you reckon? I said I don’t reckon, I know it, it won’t come back. It won’t be back--

Norman: Did you know what was wrong with her?

Green: No, I didn’t know what was the matter with her. She just didn’t—I don’t know whether it was her spine, or what was the trouble, but she just couldn’t get up herself. Could almost straighten up in the bed, but she couldn’t get out. And so, he said one more thing, I said what you got now? (laughs)

Norman: While he had you, he was gonna work you, wasn’t he?

Green: He told me said I got a cow out there, something stung her or bit her. Snake, I don’t know what. One look like she got a double face. I said yeah, you want me to see what I can do for her? He said that’s right. I said I’ll tell you what, she knows you. I’m not afraid of her, but you take my liniment, go out there, and wet it good that swelling that’s on her face, and you put some on—you don’t have to rub it in. Just put it on there good and wet and see. Then come on back, and tomorrow come to town, come by and tell me how she was. So, all right, he did it. Took my bottle, and he went out there and he soaked her, she looked like she had a double face. Whatever bit her had one side all swolled up. So, the next morning, I looked out the motor car. And I saw a little head coming and I said that’s the old man coming. He got trouble, I guess. He’s coming to it. I said how’s your wife? He says she got up herself, I said she will from now on. And you’ll get your hat off your head from now on. I said but how is your cow? He said it don’t look like it’s no more swollen, it went down over night. I said as long as it ain’t a broken bone, this here works. And he said well— I said I’ll make you up some and leave it if you want it. He said well that’s sure good stuff, it don’t get no-- It gonna make you catch a rabbit when it break and run. It’s cool and it works good with this— If you ever had your foot to go to sleep, and you have to stomp it to make the blood circulate, that’s all the feeling you have with that. And it’s equal parts. Something you got right in your house. Eggs, turpentine, and white vinegar. Them three things together. It moves it.

Norman: The whole egg?

Green: Whole eggs. It moves it. Headache, if you get up with a headache and can’t see nothing. You rubbing your eyes, and heads bustin’ my eyes hurting. All you got to do is put it up to your nose and take a good whiff, draw it up in your head and do this other in that same way. You’ll bat your eyes and say well, where’s that headache? It just gone.

Norman: I’ll be darned. How did you come up with that remedy?

Green: Well, I worked up on a ranch. And an old fellow there had a bunch of jacks --- and he told a man he couldn’t run a ranch without those jacks. Without that liniment, and he told him how he done it. And when he did, I learned how to do it, and I’ve been making it ever since. Whenever bottle get that low—it’s pretty low now, but I’m fixing—I got a full bottle of vinegar that ain’t been opened yet. But I haven’t got no turpentine yet. But I’ve got eggs in the box. So, I’m fixing to make up another bottle. I don’t ever let it get out. And the older it gets, the thicker it gets. You got to put a big mouth bottle because a little bottle with a small mouth—it just gets so thick after a while that it won’t hardly run out of there.

Norman: I see.

Green: Mm-hmm. (voices overlapping)

Norman: you don’t have to keep it in the refrigerator either?

[04:34]

Green: Uh-uh. It’s in my—I’ll get it for you and show it you. You see… My boy’s horse had a knot in his breast that looked like a man’s head. Take it now, but it looks like it runs the shape of his neck and head. He has a pretty head, but that knot out there just spoiled everything. She says oh --- for that horse because it belonged to my boy. And he’s a high jumper, so he never knocked a hurdle or thing down to hang himself. Said he clears it. So, she says I’m going to, down to someplace she was going to, she says you take care of everything Green until I get back. I says I will Ms. [Fuller or Phillips?]. I said but, when you come back, that big knot in your boy’s horse’s breast—I’m going to destroy that. It won’t be there when you get back. She says if you do, you’ll get a bonus. I said all right, it’s going, it’s got to go. This is it, right there, I got it, rubbed it on him. Then I soaked it and wet it good and turned him lose and I guess he run for about an hour. Trying to bite it. He couldn’t get to it because he had hair, and that turpentine was stinging him a little bit. And he was trying to get to it to bite it. And he run himself until he run a lather sweat. Just in the lot boogedy boogedy boogedy—and that’s why—when it quit, he quieted down. So, when she come back, from—I forget the name of that place. Ain’t Florida, but somewhere over yonder she went. She come on out looking at the horses at the stables, see I was taking care of her horses. And she eyed him in the stall. She says somebody has come in and stole my boy’s horse. Told --- cause that horse of my boy’s has a very big knot on his front, and on his breast from overstrain from jumping. And it looked like a man’s head sticking out from under his neck. And she kept talking, I was listening to her, I was in the stall. After a while, she says oh Ben, I said yes’m Ms. (?)? She says who’s been here that you knows of. I said I don’t know. I went to town one day to do some shopping. I don’t know if anybody come here or not. She said well they did. They stole my boy’s horse. Said a lot of people been wanting him because he’s a high jumper. Mighty few horses can jump as high as he do. Until that knot went down. I said well, they could have. But I went to town and was in town quite a while. But that’s him Ms. Fuller. She says it can’t be Ben, it can’t. She says my horse, you know he had a big knot look like a man’s head sticking out from under his neck. I said do you remember when you left here to go on your vacation to wherever you was going to go—I told you when you came back that that would be destroyed? It won’t be no—she said oh yeah, I remember that. I said well, I have destroyed it. And he’s got a pretty neck now, and body you know. Ain’t go no man’s head anymore. And there won’t be no more. She says okay, so she went on in there, it was pay day, and she brought me out two checks. I said Ms. (?) I haven’t … or nothing, you give me two checks here. She said well, one of them if for moving that knot or whatever it was from my horse’s breast. My boy’s horse’s breast. And the other one is regular salary. I said, oh, I see. What the two checks is for. She said that’s right. The check for moving that knot out of that horse’s—what looked like a man’s head. Twenty dollars. For moving it, she said that----

Norman: How many applications did it take? How many times did you have to--

Green: I just worked on him one time, and he run himself until he was ringing wet. I didn’t do it no more. And in a few days, it was gone. I know’d it couldn’t hold on him. As long as it wasn’t no broken bone, I know’d it couldn’t stay. This woman, she comes up to me, I was over at my sister-in-law’s house. First wife’s sister, and she come up with her hands like that. I says how do you do mam? She said yeah, I said how you doin’? She says oh, my hands is giving me the blues. They’re about to kill me. I says what’s the trouble? She says I can’t open them. I just have to carry them like that and they’re just aching and paining right up to my shoulder. So, I said to my sister-in-law, I says Neddy, she says yeah brother. I says you got anything I can rub with?  She says anything you want. Green alcohol, … anything you want is here. Well I got to have something. I says I’ll work on her a little. I say ‘cause she can’t take it dry without me dampening my hands. She says oh yes, I’ll take it. I said you think you can. She says that the … and I went down her arm. She said Oh! I said what’s the matter? She said that’s just like fire. I said I told you, you couldn’t take it. That’s the reason I wanted to dampen my hands. I says I’m gifted to move pain with my hands. And there’s too much electricity in me and I knew it’s going to burn you. And she said something sure did burn. And I said give me your stuff Neddy. And I washed my hands good with it, and she hand me a towel and I dried them. I said give me your hands, and she did, she had them clawed up, she said I can’t straighten them. So, her boyfriend was there, and he one legged. He was a fun maker, he always made fun of people. He just saw nothing that couldn’t be done, saw that people just talked. So, all right, I rubbed her hands, I did both of them with that stuff she gave me to rub them with. --- And I laid back and she said what’s the matter? I said what a minute, that didn’t wash. I said Ms. open your hands. She said I can’t. There’s just pain up to my shoulder. I said you can, old pain is dead, come on now, open your hands. And they both flew open like that. She said, oh, look at that, look at that Ms. Neddy, look. And she just went to shouting and going on. And her boyfriend, sister-in-law’s boyfriend he was there, he always a fun maker. He said Neddy, Neddy said yeah, --- I didn’t know he could do that. She said I did. He was in our family for years and married my sister. He’s a pain mover. With headache or anything like that. Said he’ll heal you. And said you can’t fool him with no anger or nothing either, said he knows people too.

Norman: Where did you get your gift Ben?

Green: So, he stood there awhile and said I sure didn’t know he could do it, and she said he sure can and says he sure did open her hands. Said look at that, she wiggled her fingers. So that woman got married, and I seen her and her husband down to the blacksmith shop, and I said how you doing Ms. Williams. She said I’m doing fine Mr. Green. I said how are them hands? She said they never have given me no more trouble. I said they won’t, it’s done forever. She says I guess --- she said if I had known you could do that, I never would’ve suffered all these years with my hands cramping, and my fingers going all like that. So, well I didn’t know you were suffering until you come in my sister-in-law’s house ----.

[13:30]

So, another fellow, a friend of mine, he was working at the oil shell, he come in there, he had told his wife he had a stroke, couldn’t go to work that morning. I got a stroke, so I walked in there to him and said you ain’t got no stroke. He said oh yes, I can brother, I can’t get out of bed even. I got a stroke. I said all right, I said Ms. Aunty(?) have you got anything to rub with here, she said anything you want. I said get me something so I can dampen my hands. And you can get out, and I got after him. And when I got through with him, I said get out of bed. He said no I can’t. He said I got a stroke and can’t get out of bed no more. I said get out of that bed Holmes(?). So, he finally got out, he swung his feet around and got out and walked across the floor, and you could hear him come out yonder to his garage where his car is. And he says come here honey, and she come running and she says what’s the trouble? He says looky here honey, says I got out myself. Looky here, I’m walking all over the room. I said I told you, you didn’t have no stroke, you couldn’t have done that if you had a stroke. She said who did it? He says he did, he put me out of that bed, but I had to keep on shaking because he had a bad case of it. As soon as I come out of it, it was all over my shoulders and knee, and I grit my teeth and held my hands steady and went back to him. And I said you got a lot of misery. I can tell it when I put my hands on him. He said oh man I didn’t know you could do that. I said a whole lot of things you don’t know, but I said I put you out of bed. See white folks, Spanish folks, colored folks—all nationalities. When I moved up there into town, up on Academy Hill, just a block from the school. They come up there and get me to move their pain. And one man come up there and he couldn’t bring his wife but he lived down in town, and I was up on Academy Hill. He said you got to go Ben, he says can’t nobody settle her down, she’s just having a spasm there. I went on down there and oh there was a bunch of folks in the yard there ‘cause she was going on screaming and carrying on so. So, I walked in and said what’s the problem miss? She said oh, I’m just suffering. It’s just hurting all over, said I don’t know what’s the matter. I told him get a little water and a towel and let me wash my hands. And bring me a little something or other to dampen my hands with. If you got a little liniment or alcohol, anything. I sat her down. He did and I washed and dried my hands, and I put my big hands in the middle of her forehead and made one or two strokes down and come under her chin. Then she batted her eyes a little. I made three strokes, and when I did, I said where’s you hurting. She said it's gone. I says it’s got to go, it can’t stay there. And shoot, people just looked at me as I come out the door, I said I settled her down. He said Green, how much do I owe you for helping me with my wife? I said not a thing, just keep the change. Walked on out, I said was that all you want? He said yeah, I just had to do something because she looked like she was going crazy, I didn’t know what was the matter with her. I said well, she’ll be all right now, and from now on. And it never did bother her again no more.

We was down south, way down, cooking for this food Academy, it was summer school, and there was a bunch of women staying there in the house. Just women, I said all right, I went over there, I want to meet them all. It was very funny. So, I walked up to the door and knocked, and this woman come to the door and said can I help you? I says I heard this was the house that most all the help of the colored people whoever was that stayed here over here. She said they do, there’s about fifteen or sixteen staying around here now. I didn’t hear, some of them were still on their job. I said well, I just I’m cooking down there for San Marcos Academy summer school, and I want to get acquainted with them. Said we’d be there for two months and a half and I just want somewhere to come to when I wasn’t working. She said well this is where they all is. When I spoke, eyes everybody—women broke and run out of the room and was creeping back like that – just scared.  I said look, y’all don’t need to be nervous. I said I didn’t come here for any harm, I just come here to get acquainted. And so, I asked the old lady with her eyeglasses on, she’s sewing, I said Annie, what’s the matter with these folks? What are they afraid of? She said they’re afraid of you, I said well I didn’t do nothing, I just come here to feel at home, I just wanted to get acquainted. Said what’s the trouble? She said when you spoke, eyed everybody, your voice rang all through this house and you scared all them women. And they all got nervous, and they all thought I was a hoodoo. I don’t know, a hoodoo? I don’t know nothing about that. She said well that’s just what they thought you was. And they wouldn’t get no closer to me when I was walking than from here to you. They didn’t want to be—said I was a hoodoo. So, the way I learned the thing, I see they was all frightened. So, I let them all settle down, and got acquainted. So, we was over there one night and thought we’d play a little game. They said Green, you ain’t into this, you need to be into this come on. Said everybody’s—this is where we’re all hanging out, come on, let’s play a game. And I says all right, I’ll come in on it.  So, any part of it was—and I shouldn’t have done it. ‘Cause they all thought I was a hoodoo anyhow—and I wasn’t. And I played a game and that made most of them think I was. And they said what do you want to play this game with, I said give me a egg, and I’ll get my broom straw. I want my broom, but just bring me an egg. And they took me a egg, and I put it over there on the table and shaped my straw, and put it on that egg. And I sat back there and all that whole house was full. And I said straw, these people is under the impression that I’m a hoodoo. I’m not no hoodoo, am I? So around that egg, they said see there, you know colored people are suspicious anyhow, they scared of haints and ghosts and all that stuff, well the majority of them anyhow. I says I want you to straighten them out, because I’m going to be around here for two months and a half, and I want to get acquainted, but I don’t want people to think I’m a hoodoo, or some kind of conjuring man. So, straighten them out. I said first thing, if I have any friends in this room, you go to the right, and if I haven’t got no friends in here, you go to the left. And they was all looking with their eyes bucked, you know. So, it went around to the left, it ride on that egg. I said that will do. If I ain’t got no friends at all here right now—and they said well, some of y’all talk to it, see if it will work for you. So, they went to talk to it. Is this man a hoodoo straw? Is he—what is he? It just lays on the egg. Said, see, it won’t move. I said keep talking to it, and they did. And it still wouldn’t move. And they said see, he’s hoodoo, it don’t work for nobody but him. I said, yeah, it’ll work for you. I don’t know, it just ain’t working for you. So, I says straw, I was all the way over there, I wasn’t anywhere close to it. Some of them thought I was close. They thought I was blowing it with my breath and making it move, but I was way away from it, too far. So, I said, straighten these folks out, they all under the impression that I’m a hoodoo. I said if I’m not no hoodoo, am I straw? And it was over there on that table, and they said see, it work for him. I say straighten them out, ‘cause all I came here for was to get acquainted, I say cause I’m going to be here awhile. I said ain’t that right straw? And they said well see that? And they got the impression that I was a hoodoo because I worked that straw on that egg.

 

[End tape 2A: 23:07]

[Start tape 2B: 00:00]

‘cause I’m going to be here awhile. I said ain’t that right straw? And they said well see that? And they got the impression that I was a hoodoo because I worked that straw on that egg so they wouldn’t give no --- (audio cuts)

Siler: ---

Norman: Mr. Green, do you have any objection— (audio cuts out) South West— (audio cuts out)

[End tape 2B: 00:23]