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Oral History Transcript - John Garland Flowers - March 27 1964

Interview with John Garland Flowers

 

INTERVIEWER: Bruce Roche

TRANSCRIBER: Cathy Sappington

DATE OF INTERVIEW: March 24, 1964

LOCATION: Southwest Texas State College, San Marcos, TX

___________________

 

Summary: This is the transcript from the second of three interviews that Bruce Roche conducted with Dr. Flowers just prior to his retirement.  Dr. Flowers (Class of 1913) was President of Southwest Texas State College from 1942-1964. In this interview, he talks about the development of general education requirements that brought the Humanities (arts and philosophy) back into mainstream course requirements.  He discusses his opinions about faculty qualifications and who should supervise student teachers, about the college adopting a team-teaching approach, and the role of a college president.  Flowers also talks about funding from the Danforth Foundation and the Hogg Foundation that allowed the school to implement programs it couldn’t otherwise afford.

Interviewer Bruce Roche was director of the College News Service.  This interview was the source material for his article “Goal: Excellence – Dr. Flowers’ Lifelong Watchword,” published in the Austin American-Statesman on August 30, 1964. 

NOTE: This recording was originally made on 7” reel-to-reel tape.  Sometime after the college became a university in 1969, the audio was re-recorded onto cassette by the SWT recording service. 

 

Begin tape – March 24, 1964

 

Automated voice: This program was recorded at San Marcos, Texas by the Southwest Texas State University recording service.

[approximately one minute of no audio]

[1:18]

BRUCE ROCHE: Dr. Flowers, in the conference today would you trace for us the outstanding events and developments of your administration here at Southwest Texas State? Tying in perhaps some of the programs that you mentioned in the last conference as being worthy of mention the teacher education program at Southwest Texas State. You talked about the counseling program in some detail, but perhaps you might want to say more about it, the General Education Programs, and others, and developments in Texas and in the nation, of educational significance during that time.

JOHN GARLAND FLOWERS: Of course, this college has always done a superior job in preparing teachers. There isn’t any question about that.  That's been its major goal and objective since its founding. And I recall even back in 1912 and [19]15, when this college was a normal school in those days, they were training very fine teachers. And they knew a lot about it. They were not as broadly trained as they should have been, but they went out of here and made . . . they gave a good account of themselves and for that day, it was regarded as a very outstanding institution. Now, there's been a great many changes in teacher education in this country in these in the past 30 years in particular. I don't know of any responsible teachers here in this country who don't believe that the very roots of teacher education are in the arts and sciences.

And that goes for all fields. In other words, a person must have good education, be broadly trained, and broadly educated, in what we ordinarily think of as the liberal tradition. And that is a prerequisite. And we've gone a long way here in this college in seeing to it that all students, whether they're elementary majors, secondary majors, or vocational majors, have a good foundation in the Liberal Studies. For instance, our general education requirements, I believe at the present time, demand that the person completed at least fifty-three hours of work in required subjects. These include social sciences, humanities, natural sciences, and a new program that was initiated seven years ago in the arts, philosophy.

And we believe very strongly in this General Education Program. Now this is the capstone of our total program. I think I should say that [in] my judgment, that this work in general education we require would be suitable for anybody, whether he's majoring in teacher education, or whether he's going to be a lawyer or an engineer, whatever it is. You think it's the kind of material that people ought to be exposed to ought to become—have some depth and breadth of it in their scholarship in these different areas of subject matter. Now, I think this college has made very great strides in the area of general education. And I believe that by the time the student really gets into his specialty, his areas of specialization, at least he is progressing with his specialty at the same time that he is delving into these new areas.

One of the exciting things about our course in the integration of the arts to which is the fact that most students in public schools have no exposure whatsoever to the arts. And our committee back there, when we were working on this woke up to the fact that we were graduating people who never had any contacts whatsoever with the field of art. And that people were graduating from our college who had no exposure to it. And we felt like it was an obligation to see to it that students would be required to take a basic course where they would at least get to open a few doors in this area. And I think it's been a very highly successful enterprise. It's a little difficult to work it out because you have several departments that have joined together in offering these courses. But the facts are that in the area of art and music, we've had the one of the largest expansions of any departments in the colleges, and that’s become larger since we introduced this program.

[06:55]

ROCHE: You attribute it in part to the program?

FLOWERS: I certainly do.

ROCHE: This has been the development of the General Education Program in particular then Dr. Flowers, has been in development-- that has occurred during your administration?

FLOWERS: Oh yes, that’s come in the last decade. I mean, that part of the General Education Program. Actually, the program as it now exists, as now defined in the catalog was not clearly stated until about 1950. But this program in the arts, the humanities, was introduced seven years ago, and it came about largely because we were able to get a grant from them the Danforth Foundation to help us to finance certain aspects of it. Now we recognize its weaknesses, we recognize that there are many things about it that we wish were different. But in general, we are extremely proud of this little program in what we call the arts and the humanities.

[7:57]

ROCHE: Dr. Flowers, I don't mean to keep going back to the general education or academic foundations program as it's called now. But this particular type of program is now required in all state institutions of higher learning. Has the experience at Southwest Texas State contributed to this requirement?

FLOWERS: I have no idea. I have no notion about this. All I can say is that our program has been studied by a great many colleges. And that I do know of some that have adopted some of the things that we do. But there are certain aspects of our programs that are unique in Texas. And we think our faculty is to be complimented, because they have had the courage and they've been so motivated that they've been willing to put in a lot of extra effort and time in order to develop them. I would say that our work in the social studies, and perhaps English, and perhaps natural science are pretty much traditional. But the very fact that we insist upon breadth as well as depth in these areas-- that itself, we think is a characteristic of the program here.

Well, I think that pretty well describes what we call our General Education Program. The evaluations made by the American Association of Colleges of Education in 1951, and then the other evaluation that was made by the Southern Association in 1958 gave us a very flattering report on our General Education Program. Both associations, as well as the National Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education, commonly known as NCATE . . . this report was highly congratulatory of what we're doing here. And they said that we deserve a great deal of credit because the program was created, and in some ways distinguished.

ROCHE: Dr. Flowers, we have mentioned in particular there the General Education Program which was rather largely developed during the years of your administration. Are there other key points that developed during your years as president of Southwest Texas State that you call to mind as being particularly outstanding?

[11:15]

FLOWERS: Well, there's one-- we were talking about Teachers Education a few minutes ago. There’s one aspect of our teacher education program – or two aspects of it, at least, that I look upon as real achievement. For instance, it is our judgment that the person who is preparing himself to be a teacher in the Secondary Schools is supervised in his student teaching by a person from the department in which he is specializing. At one time, these people were supervised by the people over in the education department. Now, it's my belief – and I think that our whole college have come to this judgment now – that the people who are best prepared to prepare teachers and to supervise student teaching and to have a great deal to say about the methods that should be used are the people in the subject matter areas.

So, what do we have here? We have a specialist in the department of subject matter who goes out and supervises the student teachers and who is responsible for whatever special methods that are needed in that particular department. Now, it's hard to find scholars who at the same time have this extra background and experience in the public schools – they can do this job. They are hard to find, but we have developed some, we have been able to locate some.  Now then, in all of our departments, we've got a specialist in every subject matter department  who is not only a scholar in his own right in his own field, but he's also a scholar in his own right because of experience and because of studying as a teacher educator in his subject matter field.

ROCHE: And this would further—

FLOWERS: This is unique, I think.

ROCHE: This would differentiate Southwest Texas State from perhaps other teacher training institutions?

FLOWERS: I am of the opinion that we've gone further with that – let’s put it that way – than any other institution. I don't know this to be true, but I think it's true. Now, this is not discounting in the least the contribution which the Department of Education makes to this. Their contribution is a very great one indeed. The whole area of educational theory and education philosophy and the whole learning process and the management of the school in our democracy and in our society. There are many aspects of the teacher’s job which has to be learned (in the background is the sound of Westminster chimes, likely from the bell tower, ringing 4:00), and for which the Department of Education is responsible.

And now there's another aspect of this in the elementary field that I think is significant. And I think we're a little different here. For instance, we insist that, in the preparation of elementary teachers, instead of having a teacher in the education department teaching courses in curriculum and methods let’s say in art, and music, and arithmetic, and in science, and mathematics, and history, we again call upon the subject matter departments to be responsible for it. For instance, the Department of English has their course in children's literature, which is one of the one of the very finest courses offered in the college. The field of mathematics we have this course developed by Professor Cude, who himself was a former superintendent of schools and who knows the public school from experience. And we have developed a course here in mathematics that we think is highly essential and that every teacher must have. Take the work in Elementary Science. The program developed mainly by Professor Gary of the Biology Department. Professor Gary went away for two or three years in Bentonville and Peabody to prepare himself for this field.

The facts are that a person to teach science in the elementary school has got to have an exposure, and have considerable scholarship, in a lot of fields. And not just a specialist, let's say, in chemistry, or biology or physics. He needs to have knowledge of astronomy, and earth science, and physical geography, and geology. And because the subject matter of science in the elementary school cuts across all of these various disciplines. So you can see that a person, let's say, who was strictly a chemistry major, or was strictly a biology minor is actually lacking in teaching elementary science. He needs a broad exposure. But he also needs depth, you see, in these fields. So, this, we think, is an aspect of our program here that is very, very significant. In other words, all of our subject matter departments are tied in to the Teacher Education Program and well-integrated in its formulation. We wouldn't anymore think of saying that this job is Department of Education solely than anything in the world, it would be completely wrong.

Now in that sense, this college, I think, has gone down the road [to] real progress, and I think among the things that—as I look back over my years here, I think I'm as proud of that as almost any other one thing.

[17:10]

ROCHE: Two or three things come to my mind as we talk about some of these things Dr. Flowers. The first thing was- in getting back to the Humanities Program, something that does seem a little unique. And something which may be setting the pace. I don't know I can't speak authoritatively. And this is the Team-Teaching Approach that is used in those humanities courses.

FLOWERS: That’s right. That in itself is an exciting development. It's not near as comfortable as having your own course up in your own room by yourself. To have two (or) three other professors from different disciplines sitting in while you're teaching your area of subject matter is quite a new experience for some people. But these people have teamed together as a group. And what they're trying to do is to see the stream of the arts.  We might call it a stream . . .  the interrelationship between all of the arts. There are fundamental principles, there are guiding principles that cross over the various lines of subject matter in the arts. And what we're really trying to do in this course is to get people to understand is that there is a relationship between architecture, and painting, and the drama and so on. And this team teaching is done exceptionally well by these people. And I think it also helps the student to see and realize that subject matter isn’t something you can put in watertight compartments. But they spill over and they relate to other areas. And here are our professors now working together in a common purpose, common objectives, and trying to help the student see the interrelationships. And they can see it in practice in these teachers.

[19:23]

ROCHE: Would you say that through this program, or this approach to teaching, and through several of these other things that you have mentioned, that Southwest Texas State is certainly at least playing its role, if not more than playing its role, and, if not, indeed helping to set the pace in examining new approaches to education and new approaches to subject matter?

FLOWERS: Well, Mr. Roche, I prefer never to make comparisons because they're I think they're odious. Every college has its own sense of pride in its achievement. I know a variety of exciting experiments and things that are going on right now in colleges and universities in our state that are approaching some of these problems a little different way. And I will say that I think we have approached it in a way that we felt that we could get results. And I think we have to start off and take a look at it now.

A subjective judgment on my part leads me to believe that we've done very well by our students. And whereas a few years ago, when students first began to take these courses in the humanities, the so-called humanities, the arts, there was a good deal of resistance. And now I hear students saying, “well, I wouldn't take anything but that course. I wouldn't take anything but that experience. It's my first exposure to it. And I wouldn't exchange it for anything.” This course in philosophies men live by, I hear students say that “I wouldn’t give up that course for anything. Because it opened a lot of vistas to me that I never had. I didn't understand how we come to believe as we do about a lot of things.” Well, that's precisely what the course is about. It's trying to get people to examine their own beliefs, what they believe about it. And then we hope that from there they'll they want to delve deeper into philosophy and philosophic thinking. And I think we reached the place now where we are going to have to think in terms of the Department of Philosophy now, right soon. I think that's just around the corner.

[21:55]

ROCHE: Well, Dr. Flowers in all of these developments, I think that in this story, at any rate, in (this purpose?), we'll put this tape to and these notes. May I ask what the role of the college president is in all of these developments and all of these activities, specifically, and then perhaps we might broaden it a little bit just to ask, what is the-- what role does the college president play in general?

FLOWERS: Well, the truth about the matter I think is this:  that the president of the college is in a leadership role, and he's expected to give leadership to his college and its development. And I have to striven hard to try to keep myself informed on what's taking place in the country. I visited hundreds of colleges in the last 30 years. And everywhere I went, I tried to get new ideas to bring back to my campus, here as well as elsewhere. And then I think the college presidents got to be wise enough to plant some of these seeds and see if they will grow. See if it'll take hold. And see if you can find people who have a like mind. And see if he can encourage people to want to try some of the things and then be bold enough and have courage enough to really experiment.

I think the role that I tried to play is to try to sell some of these ideas—I don't like the word sell but I don't know a better word. And then try to get the extra money from different sources, foundation sources, to finance some of the projects and then after the thing is started, to get out of the way and then let the faculty run with the ball. And then pat them on the back whenever they make a touchdown. And to me, I think that's the role that I should play, and what I've tried to play. In other words, I think the President essentially ought to be an initiator of ideas. At the same time, he ought to be playing a very modest and a very humble role. When the program is once launched, then he ought to get out of the way and let his faculty run. Run with the ball. And that's been my philosophy all along.

And of course, I secretly take a lot of pride in some of these things. And I'm very glad to have faculty members claim – to take – the credit for it because they were the ones that did it. But some of these things had to start someplace – you had to begin at some point. Now, how do you begin? I remember distinctly some faculty meetings that we had back in the (19)40’s. And some of these things were discussed. And there was absolutely no response from anybody—that there was no response to it. And yet, by 1950, the program was launched. And there was an acceptance on the part of the vast majority of the faculty for the things we were talking about. And so I’ve lived to see the seed that was planted back there by myself, as well as certain lecturers that I've brought in – people that I brought in helped to plant some of the seed, and I’ve lived to see these seeds sprout and plants mature and begin to see the harvest now.

[26:02]

ROCHE: Would this be another outstanding development of your administration perhaps-- the Danforth Series, I believe this happened before I came here. There were a number of outstanding people in various fields, I believe, that came here as Danforth lecturers.

FLOWERS: That's right. In other words, we didn't have state funds. We couldn't, didn't have the money to, to launch certain programs. For instance, the great lecture series that we started here, well, how was it? Well, out of this grant of $15,000 we get from the Danforth Foundation-– and it was the first grant that we got – we launched five programs under that grant. And one of them was this work in the arts that we've been talking about. One was this great lecture series. And another was an evaluation of our student activity program, which is a I think another thing that we can talk about some time. In other words, we wanted to bring somebody in to take a look at our whole extracurricular program to see if it was dynamic and help us to get rid of some of the dead wood, and help us to make what we did have better. We spent a little of the money for that. And we also had another project in the improvement of the quality of our dormitory system. The counseling that went on, and the organization of our dormitories, and the training of our dormitory directors. And that's a story in itself, and I think we have a program here in dormitory system that is really quite dynamic and we can be extremely proud of it.

Well, you can see how a few thousand dollars – how great a return it can bring if it's properly spent, and we've become motivated by it. For instance, we were struggling here that time with how to make our library more effective and more dynamic. There was a notion that we ought not to have open shelves in the library. (Westminster chimes in the background.)  And there was resistance on the part of many people, including the library staff. They didn't believe in open shelves. But some of us believe that open shelves is indispensable, absolutely, to have a good library. Well, the time came and we wanted to expand the library and so we spent some of the Danforth money and bringing to the campus me like Lamar Johnson from California. He used to be at Stephens College where he carried on a 10-year experiment in libraries for liberal arts colleges. And we brought him here to lecture to our group and to work with the library. He spent two days with us. And he did it as much if not more than any other one person to get us all to see the the role of the library on a college campus.

Now, these are the things that I've talked about, the seed corn that we planted. And yes, the Danforth Foundation, we're eternally grateful to them for all of the wonderful things they’ve done for us. We have still another program that they gave us, which provided another fund for another purpose that has been a very great value to us. But of course, I wouldn't want to speak of the Danforth Foundation without at the same time giving recognition to the Hogg Foundation for what they've done for us, they have actually spent more money on this campus for various and sundry projects then has the Danforth Foundation. And that in itself is another long story.

[30:20]

ROCHE: Part of it was covered during our last conference when you talked about the Student Counseling Program.

FLOWERS: Yes, they finance that, but before that they financed a number of projects in special education and training of teachers for handicapped children and for mentally retarded children, and emotionally disturbed children. Orthopedically handicapped children. The Hogg Foundation has sponsored many of the lectures and visiting lecturers we brought here. As we began in 1945. They've been most generous, and we are eternally grateful to Dr. Sutherland and his staff for being so helpful in so many of these programs that we have initiated here.

ROCHE: Has the Hogg Foundation cooperated and assisted in the work Dr. Zedler has been doing in the Speech, Hearing, and Language Clinic?

FLOWERS: Oh yes, they were –I don't know how many thousands of dollars that the Hogg Foundation has given us for that program. And now, you can see what has happened. Right at this moment we are signing another contract with the federal government for another research project. And . . . we got a project last year from the Department of Health. And these two projects together will total more than $200,000 for research. And there again, you see, is the seed corn that was planted back there by the Hogg Foundation in getting something started. And that again is the role of leadership in in getting things done.

ROCHE: Dr. Zedler and her clinic must be a source of great pride for you.

FLOWERS: I am extremely proud of what she's done. She's done a pioneer job and here we have a person who is recognized throughout the nation now. She's not just a figure locally, or even the state [level]. But her writings, her research is known now by the leaders throughout this nation. And our faculty and the public doesn't really know the extent of her influence. She's called upon to appear before all sorts and kinds of groups where medical men only are present. And where she gives her interpretation and what she finds in regard to this specialty that she's developed in the neurologically damaged child. And we're hoping that these two researches when they are finished – and it's going to take four years with all our defense and reporting – but I am of the opinion that when they are reported, and if they do what was calculated, it's going to give us a recognition, a professional recognition of which we will be extremely proud.

[33:37]

ROCHE: Well Dr. Flowers, there are so many programs that are outstanding and so many people on this campus who are outstanding, I know you hesitate to point at individual programs and faculty members. But there is a person on this campus – and his programs that I do want to ask you about, specifically because he is such a well-known person, and in his own way is somewhat of a controversial figure. And that's Mr. Jowers. He has enjoyed it-- there was just this morning in the Austin American, I don't know if you saw it or not. An article columned by one of the Austin sports writers going in to some explanation about the success. And certainly Mr. Jowers has enjoyed-- just utterly phenomenal success both as a basketball coach and as a football coach, and I wonder if I could ask you to comment on him and his program.

FLOWERS: Well, of course, I think there are two things here. In the first place, Jowers is a genius in many ways, and I think a genius in this sense in that he has knack, and the knowledge of how to get more out of a group of men than anybody I've ever known. I've never known his equal. And remember now that he's developed these championship teams, and that's after the boys have been picked over by the big universities that can offer the big scholarships. Then he goes out and recruits his teams – his material – and develops these men. But of course, to me, the big thing about this is the fact that the men who come under Jowers’ instruction are out coaching now in the public schools and are making such a huge success. And that to me, is the highest tribute that I know how to pay the man.

The fact that we have a winning football team or a basketball team, of course, it's important to our ego and our pride and that sort of thing. But that's not the important thing. The important thing here is a man who can take men and develop them into great coaches and great leaders  of boys. Whether he knows it or not, but his influence is multiplied 1000 times over because of his ability to train men to go out and develop other teams. That's the big thing about Milton Jowers. Of course now, the glory of having a winning team and all that's important. But that's not the most important thing about Milton Jowers. The fact is that he's a great teacher educator. He's a great teacher educator. He knows how to take a man and how to teach him how to coach. If you don't believe that, just look at the men who go out of here and made records as basketball coaches, and football coaches who were essentially Milton Jowers men, and that's largely true of Oscar Strahan too.

ROCHE: I have heard a number people, not the least of whom was Sidney Hughes, the past president of the Alumni Association, comment on fact that Milton Jowers learned so much of what he does, and is, from Oscar Strahan.

FLOWERS: There's no question about that, and he learns—see here is a man who ....  Sometime, somebody is going to write a book of this college, of the great teachers that have been here and great personalities. And when that book is written, I can tell you that Oscar Strahan’s name is going to be listed among them as one of the greats that this college has had. And he came here with almost no facilities.  Came into this little college and struggled over the hard years, and through the depression. And throughout it all he never complained, but he just worked away. Kept pegging away. But Oscar Strahan had a philosophy of athletics that was really, really magnificent. And Jowers – remember now he owes a lot to the old maestro. Let's just give people their just due. And that isn’t taking it away from Jowers either. See there, Strahan has had some other men that didn't do as well as Jowers has. Basically, Jowers’s philosophy is Strahan’s philosophy. Except he's probably refined it more than Strahan did.

[38:37]

ROCHE: We have been talking about the broader strokes, broader picture, Dr. Flowers. And certainly you have implemented this specific illustrations of programs that have developed during your administration at Southwest Texas State and you've explored the role of the president. I wonder if in the remaining minutes, you would talk about some of the specific events that have occurred during your administration that have been important and significant, or perhaps just events that to you felt close to. Or you felt at the time, and still do perhaps, that they were important?

FLOWERS: Well, that's a hard question. 

ROCHE: I’m sure.

FLOWERS: I remember, for instance, when the veterans came, about some of the excitement was engendered by the return of these men who had been out and served their country during World War days. Many of them had been wounded, some of them had served for five years right out in the thick of battle. European and the Pacific areas, and here they were back at work. I've got a great satisfaction out of that. Another high point was the time when we were able to get from the federal government a contract that would keep the college going, really. This college was used as a training center on what was called a college training attachment. And we, we had for about 15 months here on the campus, an average of 500 men, and they stayed for four and a half months. They occupied Harris Hall, we put four men to the room, and it was kind of thrilling to be a part of that program, to feel that we were contributing to the war effort.

It was kind of thrilling when we were able to get our agriculture department—the doctorate, approved . . . we got Smith-Hughes (?) approval when it required so much effort on our part to get people to support it. And this was a hard-fought battle all the way from Austin to Washington. I may say it was the only time in the twenty-two years that I have been here that I had to turn to the political leaders to sustain us. And they did a hundred percent. We got what we thought we were entitled to. That was kind of a thrilling moment.

I have been greatly thrilled on numerous occasions by the grants we’ve been able to get from various sources and foundations. During these twenty-two years, we’ve been able to bring to this campus more than a million dollars from one source or another. To enrich our program in the way of gifts, in the way of one thing or another. Well, all of those have given me a great deal of satisfaction. The Hogg Foundation—I have not added up exactly, but in excess, I would say, of $100,000 during this period. The Danforth Foundation in terms of fellowships and scholarships, in terms of outright grants, I would say in excess of $75,000. All of these of course have brought me satisfaction. These two grants from the federal government for this research project in excess of $200,000 has been a great satisfaction.

The gift from the Huntington Family of a statue and then the money that will come to us upon the death of Mrs. Huntington is another big satisfaction. The monies raised by the ex-student’s association for various causes—all of these have been very, very satisfying as far as I’m concerned. And yet—of course this is one of the satisfactions that comes to a person in my position. And I speak of this humbly, because I’m sure — (Westminster chimes in the background)  it should have been a lot more than that, but at least it brought me a lot of satisfaction.

Some of the little things like the coming of Mrs. Franklin Delano [Eleanor] Roosevelt here to speak. Stayed in our home, by the way. I was thrilled at the way the audience accepted her and the way she presented. I’ve been thrilled at the numerous lecturers we’ve brought here. Men of eminence, of all the scholarly fields. I was tremendously thrilled by the James Taylor Lecture Series and the foundation of that. I mean these are the kind of things that bring me satisfaction. I’m also tremendously thrilled by the track that our faculty has developed the arts festival, and what it’s done for the campus. Now these are not—these things happen on the other campuses; I mean this is not unusual. You got to Trinity University, or University of Texas, or you go to Southwestern University, they have things that happen to them that are unique, and I’m sure if you talked to their president, they would say the same thing. But, these things have happened to us, these are our little story.

[44:33]

ROCHE: Well, one of the things that has happened to Southwest Texas has happened through the years to so few institutions is having one of its ex-students and graduates become President of the United States. Of course, the circumstances that surrounded his assuming the presidency are things that make us very sad, but that aside Dr. Flowers, what was your reaction?

FLOWERS: Of course, we were thrilled at that. But I was thrilled when he was made Vice President. I was thrilled when he was Majority Leader. And of course, all of that gives me a great thrill, but we have had other graduates who have been highly successful in their fields of endeavor. And a source of great pride to me, and in all of their achievements too. But of course, this one happens to be an extraordinary situation. After all, how many colleges in America have had a man—a graduate of their college—be a President of the United States? Obviously, that’s quite unusual. And I am egotistical enough to believe that he had some of his beginnings right here on this campus. And we know for certain, in fact he acknowledges the fact that there were certain people here who contributed richly to his understanding of political phenomena and so on. I would mention former President Evans, and Professor Greene as two men who perhaps were closer to him than any others. President Johnson himself has said to me that he owed a great deal to these two men. That I hope that someday that story will be written in such a way that we will know what it was that they contributed.

ROCHE: It seems to me that will require the President himself to—

FLOWERS: He may have to help in this interpretation.

ROCHE: Well Dr. Flowers, may I ask you one last question and, in a sense, it sort of encompasses the whole of what we’ve spoken of today because it would carry us back twenty-two years. And I wonder what your viewings were, and what your outlook was almost twenty-two years ago in August 1942 as you prepared to assume the presidency of Southwest Texas State College. Could you have thought all the wonderful things, and all these marvelous things that have transpired in the twenty-two years could have come to pass?

FLOWERS: Well, of course that’s a hard question, Bruce.  First place, people mature, and circumstances change from year to year. And I think that the College and the College administration—all of us have been flexible enough to try to move with the times. And so of course back in (19)42, I couldn’t visualize what would be ahead of us. But there is one thing that I would like to say Bruce, that was a dominating quality. That you’ll find this in my normal speech. That that is that I dedicated myself to a college of excellence from the start, and that I did not propose to allow any energy that I might possess, or any leadership I might possess to be wasted. And I meant by excellence every aspect of the college program. That is to say we wanted excellent administration. We wanted excellent teaching. We wanted excellent research; we wanted our extracurricular programs to be excellent. We wanted to demand more of the students and get more from them. We wanted most of all to get the best teaching of which we were capable in the classroom. Now those, those were goals back yonder that we set for ourselves, and that were general you see. And we have tried in the employment of new faculty members, and in everything we’ve tried to do to recruit a staff. We have said now the very first obligation is to create an atmosphere in your classroom that is conducive to good teaching and where the learning process can take place, and everything else is secondary importance to that. Because it’s the classroom and what takes place in the classroom that is important on campus. And as I see my role, and as I’ve seen my role all these years, is to facilitate that one thing above everything else.

[49:40]

ROCHE: You feel that most of these goals that you outlined in your inaugural address have been fully realized?

FLOWERS: Oh no, no. No Bruce, we’re just started. Yes, there have been some satisfactions, and some of the goals have been attained, but oh no. We have so far to go in building a great institution. We have a good institution, we can be proud of it, but this matter of—we can’t rest on our laurels, and these beginnings we’ve made are just beginnings. I look to see in the next two decades, in the next twenty-five years, I look to see great changes come about in higher education. And some of these things that we talked about back yonder, believed in, are going to be realized in ways that we don’t imagine now. They’re not even in existence. For instance, how could we have ever imagined a program like Dr. Zedler’s, or Dr. Brown’s. Back twenty-two years ago. But we did have one good conception, and that was that we needed a good guidance counseling program that made sense and reduced the dynamic. And that got to the heart of the problem of the learning process, and the problem of student adjustment to life, and to the campus. And we had that basic conception. You go back and get the original document now that we used. It’s in existence, Dr. Juel can give it to you.  And there we outlined there in broad strokes the fundamental concept that we had of what counseling ought to be. Well, the patterns that evolved— well we never dreamed of it. Even a decade ago. And here we find ourselves now, in this program that Brown is doing, beginning a reputation that is almost unbelievable how many colleges are seeking the help of Dr. Brown and what he’s doing, and wanting to adopt it on their campus. As you know, there are seven colleges this year that he is collaborating with on this program. And he’s having inquiries from all over the nation about it.

Well, that’s been true, and I could give you I’m sure twenty-five illustrations about how times have changed. About how with new conditions, new facilities, and new insights that we were able to move with the times. And it’s been largely due to the fact that we’ve had a faculty that has been willing to move progressively. And now we have a long ways to go, but we’ve gone a long ways.

[52:51]

ROCHE: Well Dr. Flowers, this has been a really large area for us to cover in an hour or so of talking, but I sort of feel like in as much as sixty minutes would allow, that a great deal of territory has been covered. Is there any other thing that you would like to bring in to sort of cap this off, or close up this general area of conversation?

FLOWERS: Well, let me say this, I think one of the most discouraging things that hit me when I came to this campus in 1942 was the rather deplorable conditions of our physical plant. We had come through the depression, we had come through a war, and the state had not given us any money for any improvements, very little for repairs. We hadn’t built a building in twenty-five years, and the colleges were just in terrible condition. Run down buildings, and leaky roofs, and—I was simply dismayed when I got into it. And now this is a long story that perhaps another time we ought to go into it because it is important. And that is what has happened in the making of a master plan to build a campus. All the work that has gone into it, and I think now we can say, and I can look back on this area with a great deal of satisfaction.

We’ve had a lot of good luck. We’ve had a lot of things have come our way unexpectedly to make it possible. And just to give you some idea about it, the value of the plan in 1942, according to the auditors, was a million and three-quarters. And it’s now worth sixteen million and we have— we’re let contracts in the next three months for two and three-quarter million more. We have on the drawing boards another two and half million dollars’ worth of buildings, and we have projected in our master plan for the next decade for an expenditure of another ten millions for classrooms and living quarters. So, the master plan, if it’s followed through as we have conceived of it these twenty years will give us a plan we can be extremely proud of.

And we’ve made a lot of mistakes, we’ve made a lot of errors, and this and that. But in general, I think we can be extremely proud of what’s happened in improving the physical facilities and the working conditions of our staff. Individual offices for every faculty member, which wasn’t true back in 1942. Improvement of library resources and improvement of laboratories. The amount of research that’s going on, the amount of publications going on—all of those things I think we can be extremely proud of, but the physical plan has a part to play in this thing, because it creates the atmosphere where people can work efficiently, and work effectively. And that of course, is the justification for the expenditure of all of these millions of dollars. To try to get the facilities to where the learning process is made a bit easier and is encouraged. This I think we might go into in another hearing sometime if you’re interested.

ROCHE: We’re just about run out of tape here, and I wonder if perhaps we could in setting another appointment, whether you would like to wait a few days before you decide when that would be.

FLOWERS: Well, let’s wait until after Easter sometime. Maybe we can set another afternoon when we can talk, Bruce.

 

End of tape

 

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